Anyone ever buy a puppy from Hilltop Meadows in Caldwell TX

[vickayx]

HI I'm Vickay,

I am getting a Basenji very soon. I want to buy it from a breeder in Caldwell, TX from a place called Hilltop Meadows by a breeder named Candice. I have been trying to research about her and how good of a breeder she is. Her prices are very good and I spoke to her on the phone and by e-mail she was very nice and had answers to all my questions but just because she says something doesn't mean its true. I won't be able to visit the puppy before I get it considering I live in NJ and all the breeders here are too expensive or all the puppies are bought out. If anyone knows anyone that got a dog from her I would love to know I want to make the right decision about choosing to buy from her then someone else. Thank u!

[tanza]

As they say, you get what you pay for.... Does she do Fanconi testing? Those results are in the public database at www.offa.org. You need the sire and dam's names that the test was submitted on or their registration numbers. You should alway check these for yourself and not take someone's word for it. What other health testing has she done? Saying they are Vet Checked and have always been healthly is not an answer for health testing before breeding. From what I can tell her Basenjis are not AKC registered which in my book makes her a Backyard Breeder.

Go and read this thread about this breeder, as she does (or did not) test for Fanconi, using DNA testing. Also she has other breeds that she sells, so to me this is not a responsible breeder.

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?5223-New-about-to-Get-a-Basenji-Puppy-of-my-Own

[vickayx]

I asked her about the testing. She tested the parents and they are free of it. Also the puppies get a swab test. None of her dogs ever had it. Her dogs were registered with another association i just don't remember it off the top of my head but it was not AKC. She did tell me about the other dogs she breeds so it worried me as well. She has a one year health guarantee for her puppies and only one puppy out of 15 years died. So I'm not sure what to think. I saw another person had posted something about her back in 2009 but they have not been on this forum since they got the dog so i dont think i will be hearing from them. She did say she has many many references so I would be calling them but who knows if they are just her friends. I have so many questions haha.

[tanza]

Unless you find the test results on the sire and dam at www.offa.org they are NOT tested, no ifs, ands or buts about it. This is something you should research yourself. And yes, her dogs are registered with what are considered "fly by night" registration places because AKC requires DNA parentage testing on high volume breeders that those breeders don't want to pay. One year health guarantee on a Basenji is pretty useless.... since Fanconi is late onset (3+yrs), PRA (blindness) late onset (5+yrs), Thyroid issues, usually late onset, Hips - can't be tested until yrs old (they can be prelim'ed before that), so one year doesn't give you much in this breed. Has she kept in touch with every puppy that she has sold to know about the health? Just because the sire and dam might not have Fanconi, doesn't mean that they are both not carriers and produced Fanconi offspring. Or if they passed from some other reason? I am glad to hear however that she will test the pups... but again, it is the buyers responsiblily to follow up on for themselves. Do not just take anyones word for it.

Again, like I said, breeding is not cheap... responibles breeders do not make money, they do it for the love of the breed and to better the breed. I have never made a profit from breeding, I consider it lucky if I break even with a litter. As person such as this is one that is breeding for profit only, period.... IMO

Consider this.... how much quality socialization could she possibily give pups when she has at least 3 or 4 other breeds? It is hard enough to socialize one litter of pups (average size 4 to 6) properly let alone have puppies from other breeds at the same time. Even if only one bitch of each of the other breeds has a litter around the same time, at the very least that would maybe be 15 to 20 pups. There is no way you can properly socialize all those pups at the same time.

You would be far better off to save your money and maybe wait till next year for a pup and go to a responsible breeder

[Chealsie508]

Looked into it on my own as my first suspicion was immediately a back yard breeder or mill, whatever you want to call it... And she is. She wouldn't get my vote!in my opinion buying the puppy is the least expensive investment you make for it, the costs only rise as you get one and so if you are looking into it as being "cost effective" then you may be concentrating on the wrong things. Buying from a reputable and IMO, an AKC breeder will only lessen the lifetime costs

[lisastewart]

Buying a puppy is a lifetime commitment for both you and the dog. if the puppy turns out to be an unsocialized wild thing, are you prepared to invest the significant time and expense to train the puppy to be a well behaved part of your family? Most puppies from responsible breeders are socialized and have sound temperaments. Those from puppy mills tend to end up in rescue or worse, when the unknowing buyers find they have taken on more than they can handle. I would be suspect of her based on her puppy millish type breeding practices. You should expect to pay approx $900 for a well bred puppy. Many breeders will work out payment plans with you. There are still good puppies available this yr, you do not have to take this route.

[suzee]

Before you buy a puppy from a breeder please consider adopting one from BRAT.. there's SO many that need homes. You can get a puppy/young Basenji from them that's been tested/already vetted/etc.

[krunzer]

Buy from a reputable breeder. Do a lot research on that breeder and I think you did a good thing on asking what other people here think of that breeder. Make sure all of the health testing is done and make sure you check it out for yourself. If you are thinking of possilby adopting look into BRAT as well. They can match and place personalities of the dogs to your specific needs, find one that is suitable for your family. I know that pups are being born and this is the time to get one, but do not rush into this. Be willing to wait for something from someone you can trust. Hope this helps.

[curlytails]

I asked her about the testing. She tested the parents and they are free of it. Also the puppies get a swab test.

Ask her for the link to their health tests in the OFA database (which is public) or the names so that you can look up the test results for yourself. She shouldn't be offended that you want to check for yourself. Absolutely NOTHING is coming up when I check for "hilltop" + Basenji, but maybe she has it under another name.

There are lots and lots of red flags with this breeder. If you search for her name, her phone number, and her e-mail address, you'll find that she has bred SO many breeds: Shelties, Dachshunds, English Bulldogs, Chinese Cresteds, Papillon... Frankly, I've lost count. It appears that she got her Basenjis from Shemax -- if you do a search, you'll find lots of information about them on this forum, as well.

I would back out of this deal and try to find something closer. I thought there were lots of good Basenji breeders and clubs on the East Coast? There's certainly no shortage of BRAT rescues, from what I've seen!

Aside from the BCOA website (http://www.basenji.org/), here's a useful link to help you in your search, as well:
http://www.pupquest.org

[vickayx]

It really sucks because I was so set on getting this puppy soon. I will contact her for more information so I can have more piece of mind. I will continue researching about her and other breeders. I am extremely appreciate for the help you guys have given me it is so nice to take ur time out to do this. I just want a healthy dog to live. One question though, is it a super high chance that all these health problems will be prevalent with the dogs if she says she has SOOOO many references. Wouldn't she be ashamed to give up the names but i will def ask her if she keeps in touch with the owners she sold too.

[Chealsie508]

There are some reputable breeders in n?e England, to that I can certainly attest. However, with that being said, new England is also not known for being "cheap"... Which to be honest isn't that expensive across the board. A pup around here usually costs approximate. 1000$
Price should be the smallest consideration when
Purchasing a basenji, IMO there are so many other concerns that take precedence

[vickayx]

Also just saying, which is rather crappy of me saying, but I look at the big picture I guess. If this dog is bought by someone else n they do not like it and give it up for adoption I could be the one adopting it.. right? Just saying its a crazy cycle if you think about it. Unfortunately its not a perfect world. I do not want to be supporting a puppy mill but in some way this dog will need a home other wise will be in a shelter or other.. I do not want anyone thinking I am taking the VERY HELPFUL info they've been giving me and being useless with it because its not true. I was just curious what others may feel about this thought. I am doing more and more research to pick the right choice.

[Chealsie508]

And yes, it is very easy some,most of these dogs could develop health issues and not tell the breeder, not attribute those problems to neglectful breeding,l. Not to mention most health problems in basenjis are late onset therefore the dogs shes bred may not show health issues yet.
The point I'm trying to make is that you don't weigh the chances this dog could turn out healthy, it's about making the right decision not to take such risks.

[vickayx]

What does it mean that she got her dogs from Shemax just wondering?

[vickayx]

Also she said she micro-chips her dogs so she can have a record of them and the owners and their info so I'm not sure how to take that info into use.

[Holly]

Hi Vickay, and welcome. Yes, I bought a basenji puppy from Candyce last February. She was a pleasant person, and eventually did send me AKC papers for my puppy. I had no idea how much I would LOVE this breed and I wish that I had bought from a reputable basenji breeder who only breeds dogs tested negative for eyes and knees and hips, etc. I think what everybody has written so far is accurate. I think she is not devoted to the breed. I think she is in it to make money. Fortunately, when I tested Binti she was Probable Clear for fanconi. I have not sent in the $50. for the new test yet to prove absolutely that she is clear. All that said, Binti was well socialized when she arrived, and clean and so far is a very healthy dog. (But, like Tanza said, many of the basenji problems arise after one year old.) She was a little snarky at first, but my behavior contributed greatly to that. She is my first basenji and I did not understand how dominant they can be. Once we established (firmly but gently) that she was not in charge, all has been well. I took her to get spayed two weeks ago and the attendant greeted her cautiously and then said with a surprised voice, "Oh! She's friendly!" And I said, "Well, of course! She loves everybody," to which she responded that most of the basenjis she meets are NOT friendly. I am just adding this to say it appears she has a good temperament. So, for a backyard bred dog, I think I'm very lucky. I also think she is a fairly decent looking dog. She is almost square and weighs 20 pounds. I have children aged 11 and 14, and the 11 year old can be pretty boisterous. This never seems to bother her at all, she has never been aggressive in the least (except in the beginning when we tried to move her when she was sleeping and she would growl--which she does not do anymore!). She is one years old right now. Just thought you'd like to hear my experience. Next time I will do my research and purchase from a real basenji breeder. But I am grateful that Binti is the good little dog she is and that we love her so much. Good luck on whatever decision you make.

[curlytails]

I know it sucks to derail your plans, because a new puppy is something to be incredibly excited about. But you will be excited, no matter when your puppy arrives, and more importantly, you would have the life-long assurance of a good breeder and the knowledge that you did the right thing if you go with an ethical breeder.

I also understand the conflict about wondering if you don't buy her dog, maybe the next person who is not as well prepared and not as loving will screw it up. I don't know if this (http://dogblog.dogster.com/2011/10/11/why-youre-not-doing-a-good-deed-when-you-rescue-that-poor-pet-store-puppy/) article answers any questions, but it might be a start.

When I was searching online for more information that I could offer you about this breeder, I came across a public announcement from Shemax (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LXt_SiCo9bsJ:www.topix.com/pets-for-sale/keota-ok%3Fpet_type%3Ddog%26page%3D4+candyce+witte+shema x&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) (Sheila Maxwell) that said, "WE ARE GOING TO SELL OUR BASENJIS TO CANDYCE WITTE OF CALDWELL, TX. SHE'LL FURNISH YOU WITH THE SAME PUPPIES AND SERVICE THAT WE WOULD WE ARE HAVING TO QUIT DUE TO HEALTH REASONS" (apologies for the caps -- I just cut and pasted). The name rung a bell with me as several forum members have had negative experiences with that breeder's practices in the past. So if this breeder provides the "same puppies and service," that's not exactly something to hold in high regard...

My main concern is that you can't verify ANYthing she says about her breeding practices with your own eyes. I've heard of plenty of breeders who insist that their dogs are "loved" and "happy" and "play every day," yet they spend their entire lives in an outdoor kennel, their frantic barking and wagging tails whenever a person walks by is interpreted as happiness when it's actually a desperate plea for the human companionship they DON'T get, and the amount of "play" that they get in a day amounts to being stuck in a 20' x 30' pen in the back of the farm, where they are left for hours where they MIGHT get some human interaction, and then returned to their cages at night.

I say this as someone who bought my first dog (my Shiba, who is now nearing seven years old) from a totally shady seller. My Shiba was pretty sharp-tempered, we made a lot of mistakes in his puppyhood that we might have avoided with the guidance of a more knowledgeable breeder, and his health was excellent until he was about three years old. Then his allergies started getting worse and worse every year, until two summers ago when he was diagnosed as hypothyroid, a condition which is strongly influenced by genetics. Like Holly, I love my handsome pup who came from a for-profit breeder. But I would never, ever allow myself to do that again, because this ONE time, I got lucky.

If I were you, I would definitely hold off on a decision until I had done more research, including a thorough reading of the BCOA website because there's a lot of useful information there. Check out this thorough section on screening breeders (https://www.basenji.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=470), for example.

Doesn't have to be all serious reading -- there are tons of gorgeous pictures of Basenjis that will get you through it, too. ;)

(Sorry so long...)

[LindaH]

It sounds to me like you are trying to justify buying a dog from this breeder. If money is a concern, and you have your heart set on a Basenji, why not look into getting a dog from BRAT, as others have recommended? Buying from a puppy mill (which is what this place sounds like) is simply going to keep them in business. There's no way we'll ever get rid of puppy mills until people stop buying from them (which also means not buying from pet stores).

As for Fanconi testing, you said she told you she's tested for it and they're clear. If so, please get the names of the sire and dam and look it up at the OFA website...that's the only place this testing can be done, and the results will be on their website. If the information isn't there, she hasn't tested and is lying to you. She should also be able to provide you proof of the other testing she has done, as already mentioned here (such as eyes).

[paneane]

If you're going to get a dog from a breeder, I would do the research on parents health (also their siblings is a good start). I've had sick dogs before, and I didn't do my ABC before getting them, and sick dogs are NOT fun, not at all!

Check out Winston, for example! :)

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/20770803

[tanza]

When you buy from a breeder such as this person all you are doing is the encourage her to keep breeding as she is only in it for the money

[vickayx]

Wow,

I am def learning allot. I am extremely grateful this forum exists and everyone is so passionate. I have asked her for the names of the Damn and Sire. Also I am asking her for pictures of the mother, father, puppies, puppies with the mother and, the pen and living environment. I totally understand the common sense behind the fact if you buy from a backyard breeder you are only supporting them. I have looked at BRAT before but truthfully I would like to have a puppy so I can raise it and watch its every moment of growth. This is such a hard decision because it is the only season of the year these puppies are being born. I am contacting breeders (the very very few) that live near my area to see if they would do payment plans but no one has responded yet, plus I feel like they might be offended. I do not see a prob with a payment plan if we establish a contract or something. I was told that she doesn't breed these dogs to show just for companionship for people. I do not know how to really feel about that comment. I am aware her dogs don't have championship bloodlines or championship sire but I am not looking for a show dog. I figured that's why her puppies were cheaper. How is it that she would make a profit when she charges less then a normal breeder though? I am not defending her in anyway I was just puzzled.:confused:

[tanza]

Before you buy a puppy from a breeder please consider adopting one from BRAT.. there's SO many that need homes. You can get a puppy/young Basenji from them that's been tested/already vetted/etc.

This is not a correct statement, while BRAT is a wonderful group with too many deserving Basenjis waiting for their forever homes, please not that BRAT Does NOT DNA test for Fanconi

[tanza]

Wow,

I am def learning allot. I am extremely grateful this forum exists and everyone is so passionate. I have asked her for the names of the Damn and Sire. Also I am asking her for pictures of the mother, father, puppies, puppies with the mother and, the pen and living environment. I totally understand the common sense behind the fact if you buy from a backyard breeder you are only supporting them. I have looked at BRAT before but truthfully I would like to have a puppy so I can raise it and watch its every moment of growth. This is such a hard decision because it is the only season of the year these puppies are being born. I am contacting breeders (the very very few) that live near my area to see if they would do payment plans but no one has responded yet, plus I feel like they might be offended. I do not see a prob with a payment plan if we establish a contract or something. I was told that she doesn't breed these dogs to show just for companionship for people. I do not know how to really feel about that comment. I am aware her dogs don't have championship bloodlines or championship sire but I am not looking for a show dog. I figured that's why her puppies were cheaper. How is it that she would make a profit when she charges less then a normal breeder though? I am not defending her in anyway I was just puzzled.:confused:

Reponsible breeders breed to improve the breed and breed to the Basenji AKC (set by The Basenji Club of America) breed standard. Honestly, responsible breeders breed for themselves and usually breed when they have a bloodline that they want to promote. So the responsible breeder keeps the best puppy for themselves to hopefully carry on the lines they are trying to develope (including conformation, health, temperament). So then you still have the rest of the litter... and then the most important thing is the home where they are placed, period.... regardless if companion home or show/performance home. Many of my best homes are pet homes and I would not change that for anything. While I would venture to say that 95% of the pups that I have bred could have finished a show conformation championship the home is more important. So these BYB that claim that they are just breeding "pet" puppies is a bunch of bull, in my opinion.

I as a breeder would never be offended by someone asking about a possible payment plan... and responsible breeders also have a contract regardless, so not that hard to build in a payment plan. I suppose some might be offended, but then if they are, that is not someone I would want to buy from anyway. They can always just say no.

If you are just breeding and selling for profit you are not putting any money into health testing so you don't have that expense. You use dogs on your property to breed, not like a responsible breeder that reseaches who to breed to and most all the time use a dog that could be on the other side of the country because they want to breed the best possible puppies. So that is additional cost by either shipping the bitch to the stud or the expense of AI or frozen semen breeding. Responsible breeders take into account before breeding health testing, conformation, temperament and will mating this dog with the bitch bring something to the breed? Will this mating improve the breed?

If I were you, expand your search of responsible breeders.... Many could be within a day's drive or a trip by air... (which is another thing I will not do, I will not ship a puppy, potential buyers need to come in person).

[DebraDownSouth]

Few things to consider.
1. Do you truly want to help this person continue? If you don't wish to be a part of her unethical breeding scam, do not give her a penny. Money an issue? Get a rescue from BRAT or contact breeders about older (6 mos up) dogs they have that are not going to be shown and need a home.
2. Is it smarter to save another year even, wait for a WELL BRED DOG from a RESPONSIBLE breeder that deserves your support, or jump to get one now. Which options proves you truly are a responsible person who cares about the dog more than your immediate needs?

Bottom line, RUN, run fast, from this person.

[nobarkus]

Adopt a Basenji! There's some great Basenjis at BRAT. I adopted my current Basenji 2 years ago when he was 8 months old and he's got the best temperament!

[lisastewart]

Can you tell us more about yourself? Do you live alone, have a fenced yard, plan to keep the dog indoors, etc? How far are you willing to drive to pick up your puppy? What types of pets have you had in the past, or have presently etc? What hours do you work that the puppy would be alone, need someone to take it out etc.

There may be some people on this list who can refer you to breeders that may have available puppies as litters are born. Sometimes we expect 3-4 pups and get 7. I do know of pending litters in NY, PA, IN and KY that may end up with more puppies than they have reservations.

[lisastewart]

and remember, a basenji can never use an invisble fence. They will run right thru it and other dogs can come on your property and kill your pet.

[vickayx]

I had just filled out a HUGE questionnaire on the same questions u just asked me. My hands hurt from typing so much haha but here is a quick over view. I live with my boyfriend on the lower level of my cousins home which is completely separate from the upstairs. We both work at the same place between 5-8 hours 5 days a week. My cousin comes home from lunch everyday to take his dog Fin out. He said he would do the same for us if we were to get a dog. We just put up a fence. It is similar to the style of a dog park because there are two fences basically. The first gate is near the drive way which is a 10 foot high privacy fence and then u walk into a 20 by 20 grassed area and then there is another gate that goes into another fenced in area that is surrounded by a 6 foot chain link fence the the yard is longer than wider. Anyway once we get home from work we just stay home so the dog would be around us all the time. We are active in the sense we go hiking and trail walking. I plan on crating the dog when I am not home because of what I read and how they are destructive when left alone and bored. I will ALWAYS have it on a leash even in the fenced in yard since they are sight hounds and will want to get anything running. I had a dog an English Springer Spaniel when I was growing up with my parents. We got him because someone was abandoning him and we took him. We had him for a good year but my mother never had allergies and then developed them really bad. So her friend had adopted him and she had another Springer Spaniel and had a big yard for them to play with. She told me if I learn there is everything there is about dogs one day she will get me a hypo-allergenic dog. Well, years pasted I moved out and now I think its time for me to get a dog. I did what she told me I went to the library read dog books day in and day out. I had my own dog walking business as a teenager and I dog sat as well. I still dog sit for my boss when she goes away. I watch animal planet like a religion. So dogs have been a passion of mine for ever it seems. If there are more questions u have I will be happy to answer them. Also I contacted breeders near me and one responded so far and said they are not willing to do a payment plan but I guess I will keep reaching out to people. Oh and I have a bearded dragon as of right now but his cage is 5 feet off the ground and is tucked away so a dog would not be able to get near him.

[suzee]

This is not a correct statement, while BRAT is a wonderful group with too many deserving Basenjis waiting for their forever homes, please not that BRAT Does NOT DNA test for Fanconi

nooo! i'm sorry! i didn't mean it like that. i mean they will tell you if the puppy has fanconi or not. they do test for fanconi every month, as you should with your basenjis with the testing strips..

[paneane]

Why are you planning on crating when you don't know how your dog is yet? I do believe it's different in America versus Europe on crating dogs. I have two dogs myself, I do have crates, but I rarely use them, and I won't use them as they are home alone either.

Not pointing any fingers, just wondering.

[tanza]

nooo! i'm sorry! i didn't mean it like that. i mean they will tell you if the puppy has fanconi or not. they do test for fanconi every month, as you should with your basenjis with the testing strips..

If people would DNA test, then if Clear or Carrier, no need to strip test. Strip testing only tells you on that day, the Basenji is not spilling sugar, could have been the day before or the day after. So really doesn't tell you if that Basenji does or does not have Fanconi

[lvoss]

Strip testing does not tell you if the dog you are adopting has Fanconi, it only says that at that moment it is or is not symptomatic. Strip testing is not the same as testing for Fanconi using the DNA test and should not be referred to as "testing for fanconi" it is screening for symptoms.

[tanza]

Basenji are not really hypo-allergenic, while they are usually good with people that have minor allergies, keep in mind they do shed and they do have dander which is usually what people with allergies react to. I think you will find that when at home in a fenced yard they would be fine and not need to be on a leash. Granted some will climb a chain link fence but that 99% of the time is because they are alone and bored.

[vickayx]

Well, I am just going by what allot of people here in America I guess say is the best method but u are right. You do have a point I do not know that info so it will all vary once I get it. By the way GOOD NEWS! I decided I WILL NOT being getting a puppy from that woman in Texas as she IS a puppy mill breeder. I spoke to a woman who is very devoted to the breed and is located in Mass. she wants to meet me first in person so I will drive there which will take about 6 hours just to meet and then come back at a later date, that is if both her and I decide this is a good idea to work with each other, to pick a puppy and ect.. so I feel soo much better about all this that I will not be supporting a puppy mill and I am going through legit breeder who only wants to better the breed. She only reserves 2 puppies for companionship out of each litter for the most part and the other dogs she chooses are for herself to show and breed to better breed standards. So I hope that every one is feeling better like I am about my decision. You guys are right there is no rush and there is no price when it comes to getting the best of the breed I do not want to be a supporter of puppy mills. I am so glad I researched all this before I made the final decision because I bet there are many people out there that just buy a dog on impulse.

[tanza]

Glad to hear and a very wise decision, IMO... Who are you visiting? Many of us are related by our Basenjis.

[vickayx]

Eldorado Basenji's in Mass.

[lisastewart]

There is a race meet this weekend in Frenchtown, NJ. There will be a lot of basenji there racing if you would like to visit and meet some up close. My breeders said she would be happy to introduce you to her 4 kids and let you get a feel for the breed.

[renaultf1]

Oh good...you've come to your senses about getting the other pup. :) All kidding aside, I have to commend you for being so open about everything with answering all the questions. And also have to commend you for not supporting a puppy mill.

I think you'll be very happy with a pup from Eldorado. I have dogs from Eldorado and can't say enough great things about my dogs - they have excellent temperaments. The sisters are very transparent about health testing (everything is on OFFA) and health questions/issues. I've found them to be a great resource with questions after the fact as well.

[vickayx]

What time and day is the race? I work weekends but i would be very interested. Also I am glad I'm goin with them because she really cared to ask me allot of questions and didnt rush me off the phone. She was really sweet and knowledgeable.

[lisastewart]

The meets are normally from 8- 1 or so both days. There are also races later in the month, or you could visit her at her house in PHillipsburg, she is always willing to let people come oer and meet the breed even though she is not currently breeding. My boy Trog was her last litter 6 yrs ago.

[Holly]

Vickay---I am also glad to hear about your decision. I wish that I had found this forum BEFORE I bought Binti. I know the others would have steered me into a much better decision. I did not realize all the other breeds Candyce was breeding and was sorry when I realized that I had, indeed, supported a puppy mill type operation. Good for you!!! And I will do better next time. Have fun with your puppy when you get him/her!!

[tanza]

Vickay---I am also glad to hear about your decision. I wish that I had found this forum BEFORE I bought Binti. I know the others would have steered me into a much better decision. I did not realize all the other breeds Candyce was breeding and was sorry when I realized that I had, indeed, supported a puppy mill type operation. Good for you!!! And I will do better next time. Have fun with your puppy when you get him/her!!

But the thing to remember here is that you have reconized that she is a BYB/Puppymill.... and now you know to do your homework, so kudos to you!

[bewler]

I just want to say that since becoming a member of this forum I have gained a true respect for breeders like the ones here. It is inspiring to see so many people who care about the animals they are breeding and doing so just to make sure that Basenjis remain sound and healthy. I always had some misconceptions about breed fancies and those who breed dogs, but I no longer hold those views, thanks to you guys. You have educated me and opened my eyes and for that, I thank you. I think I will always adopt my dogs - I have no desire to deal with puppy shenanigans! :) But, it is good to know that there are people out there who are trying to ensure that the Basenjis they breed are well cared for, valued and the result of careful and thoughtful pairings. So, Kudos to you guys and thanks for all of the great information!

[CongoMama]

How is it that she would make a profit when she charges less then a normal breeder though? I am not defending her in anyway I was just puzzled.:confused:

Interesting question.

Let's see. If she has three bitches which she breeds every year for a period of say, 4 years, and each bitch has on average 5 puppies, she has the potential to make:

Income potential - PM:

3 bitches x 5 pups each x 4 years = 60 pups
If she sells each for average $500 = $30,000 or $7,500 a year.

total: 7,500.00

However - we must take into account her expenses.

Expense potential:

1/Stud fee = $0 (usually owns the male(s) who is oftentimes related to the female(s))
2/Genetic health testing = $0 (usually only does this when pressed to do so)
3/Show or performance venue expenses to prove form and function of breeding stock: $0
4/ General vet care: dew claws, first exam, vaccinations, wormings: avg $50 - does not do dewclaws or a vet exam, usually buys products online and administers themselves

Now then, to compare:

Responsible breeder (RB): Caveat: A responsible breeder only breeds one, maybe two bitches a year; usually only breeds them once or twice in their lifetime, and oftentimes does not breed every year.

For the sake of comparing - we will give the RB the same number of bitches/puppies as the puppymiller.

Income - RB:
3 bitches x 5 pups each x 4 years = 60 pups
Sells each for average $1000 = $60,000 (less 1 pup from each litter which they keep since resp. breeders first breed for themselves - 12 x $1,000 - $12,000 or $48,000)

Total= $48,000 or $12,000/year

Expense:

Stud fee = cost of a puppy or $1,000 x 3 bitches = $3,000/ year

total: $3,000/year

Genetic health testing =
a/ Hips/elbows/patellas - done once, age 2 - most do it under anesthesia, avg. total for all plus OFA applications = $500 x 3 = $1,500 /4 years = $375/year

b/ Eyes - needs to be done yearly: avg $60 a year, per bitch, bitch is tested from birth through end of last breeding (age 6) = $360 per bitch x 3 bitches = $1,080 (Most RB's will continue to test until death - so in truth - we should add another 8 years on for each or another $1,440)

c/ Thyroid - needs to be done yearly: avg $180 a year, per bitch, bitch is tested from birth through end of last breeding (age 6) = $1,080. per bitch x 3 bitches = $3,240 (Most RB's will continue to test until death - so in truth - we should add another 8 years on for each or another $4,320)

d/ Fanconi - done once for the dams: $65 x 3 = $195.00 /4 years = $48.75
d1/ Fanconi - most RB's test the pups BEFORE going home so $65 x 60 pups = $3,900/4 years = 975/year
e/ Heart (should be by board cert cardiologist) - done once avg cost $100 x 3 = $300
7/ Dewclaws/Exam/vaccinations/wormings: most take to a vet for all of this - avg visit per bitch $200 x 3 = $300/year plus dewclaw visit of $300 (however most RB's do not let their pups leave until 10-12 weeks which means a second vet visit is needed 300x 2 =$600)

total: $6619 (or $12379 if you include the continued yearly testing of eyes and thyroids done on those who were bred)

Show/performance venue expenses to prove form and function of breeding stock - these are seriously deflated in today's economy:

Avg cost of dog show entry - $25 x 3 bitches = $75/show

Avg number of shows/venues (not weekends) entered each year to get various titles = 100 shows x $75 = $7500/year for all three

Avg travel expenses (gas, hotel, wear and tear on car, parking) to obtain these titles = $100/show x 100 shows = $10000

total: $17500

Net profit:

PM profit/loss: 7,450 - IN their pocket (7,500 inc less 50 exp)
RB profit/loss: <15,119> - OUT of their pocket (12,000 - 3,000 (stud fees) - 6,619. (health testing) - 17,500. = <$15,119> )

Expenses I could have added to the RB's side: time and energy spent socializing, quality vet care, high quality food, vaccine protocol adherence creating more vet visits, microchips, puppy packets, lifelong education/support of puppy buyer, etc., etc., etc.

In truth - you then have to multiply the PM profit by the number of breeds they breed (most who whelp twice a year) and well, it can be rather lucrative for some of them.

(I apologize in advance if my math is wrong - not my area of expertise), but I think one can see the general idea!;)

[dcmclcm4]

It appears that Sheila Maxwell of Keota, OK sold her Basenjis to this breeder in TX. I am familiar with Shelia Maxwell as I met her at a dog auction. If you know the name of the sire and dam of the pup, I may know some of the dogs and their health issues in their pedigrees.

Jennifer

[tanza]

Well done CongoMama and if people search the Forums for posts by lvoss, she also has recaps of litter costs by a responsible breeder.

Keep in mind also all that was said by CongoMama is if everything goes perfect.... read lvoss accounts when it doesn't! I would seriously doubt that a BYB/Miller would do what lvoss has done to make sure that everything that could be done, was.....

Here are two links:

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?4429

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?10589

[eeeefarm]

CongoMama, you forgot to feed them!! ;) For sure responsible breeders don't make a lot of profit, if any, for their efforts.

[agilebasenji]

I'd like to congratulate our OP for taking the time to do her homework and being open to long-time basenji owner suggestions. It can be hard for your head to overrule your heart, especially when you've seen pics and really want that cute puppy.

I'd also like to give you a little something to think about based on my life experiences with basenjis. I purchased Digital as a 10 month old puppy from a very good breeder. I had an older basenji and a lab at that time and worked away from home. So getting a young puppy would be difficult given my work schedule. Because Diggie came from a breeder that cared about his welfare, he was house broken, leash trained, show trained (he was my first show dog), crate trained, socialized to men/women/kids/other dogs, vet work was done, etc. I brought him into the house and he was past the chew stage and knew to go outside to pee. He was the easiest dog I've ever owned. I also knew a great deal about his temperament - what I saw was what I got. (Although, at 10 months, there can be some later maturing with some dogs.) And off to classes we went. He trained me how to do conformation stuff and together we learned how to do agility, therapy, rally and coursing. He went on to earn 30 (or more) titles. I absolutely adore this dog and could not love him more or be more attached to him if I'd gotten him at 2 months. He is also very attached to me as he as proven time and time again by performing accurately in agility trials. So, my advice, is don't discount older puppies/young adults especially when looking at dogs from good breeders. They are, in many, many ways much easier than a young puppy.

[eeeefarm]

I'd like to second what agilebasenji wrote. I've had five Basenjis, and of those two I raised from pups. Definitely easier to adopt an older pup or adult. If you get one from a good breeder, the hard work is done. :) My current boy I adopted at age 3. He does not rip up things, including his plush toys, because his breeder taught him not to do that. He's good about nail clipping, teeth scaling, anal glands, you name it. There are no "don't go there" spots on his body. He's a sweetie, and the only negative thing about adopting him was that I swear it took over a year before he accepted the fact that this home was permanent and he wasn't just waiting for his previous Mom to come back and pick him up. :)

[tanza]

Amen to what agilebasenji posted... it is right on!!!! Thanks Kim for posting that.... great input

[Lysh]

id have to agree about being open minded to an older pup if the option was there.

we got Hope at 8 wks old and we have just recently added her half sister to our 'pack' at 6 months old. She is house trained, toilet trained, socialized etc. and walks perfectly on a lead. Hope is house trained/toilet trained etc which we had no issues with her cos she was a quick learner (except for lead walking - shes a puller but that would be my fault in failing her, we are in training to fix it though lol) but its like getting a puppy thats already trained (well basically it is!) just add in the bonus you dont need to do all the hard work. Its been kinda enjoyable actually. AND. i was one of those skeptical people that dogs wouldnt bond to you if they were older etc - alls i can say is bullshizz! Ebony has bonded so well with us exactly as if we had, had her from younger.

hehe just a thought anyway. Im very proud that you have decided not to get the pup and go through a reputable breeder. you cant beat a pup with a brilliant temperament and thats health tested.

please keep us updated :D

[vickayx]

Thank u everyone for educating me about the right and wrong of buying/adopting a Basenji puppy. I am so so soooo greatfull and I feel confident that I have people who will help me with any question about Basenjis and dog related questions. It makes me feel good to have this support. Also after reading that break down of what the back yard breeder makes vs a real breeder I feel stupid for what I said but I def now know and will educate others that I know of back yard breeding. This place almost feels like a family and internet family hahaha.

[Chealsie508]

Great decision, I live in mass, about 15 minutes from Eldorado. I got my first pup from them last season. They have great dogs, then again I may be partial.
Good luck

[DebraDownSouth]

Most breeders of many breeds won't place with a home that doesn't crate the dog when alone until they have them long enough to be sure of safe behaviors, paneane.

Sorry Suzee, I have a brat rescue, I volunteer with Brat. They cannot tell you if the dog has Fanconi since they ONLY strip test-- which means they are not currently having symptoms. Doesn't mean spit because they could have Fanconi and not show it yet.

[Nemo]

I see you have found a breeder and some others to talk to, but in case you need help finding more people to talk to you can also contact the BCOA Breeder Liaison (OKBasenjis@sbcglobal.net). If that hyperlink doesn't work you can find it under Breeder Referral at the link below. Sandy may also have an idea of who is breeding in your area this year.

https://www.basenji.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=111&Itemid=94

And as a comment on the breeding costs, the breeder I am getting a pup next year had to do a c-section at the emergency vet in the middle of the night. Which you could imagine is not cheap at all.

Clay

[tanza]

I see you have found a breeder and some others to talk to, but in case you need help finding more people to talk to you can also contact the BCOA Breeder Liaison (OKBasenjis@sbcglobal.net). If that hyperlink doesn't work you can find it under Breeder Referral at the link below. Sandy may also have an idea of who is breeding in your area this year.

https://www.basenji.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=111&Itemid=94

And as a comment on the breeding costs, the breeder I am getting a pup next year had to do a c-section at the emergency vet in the middle of the night. Which you could imagine is not cheap at all.

Clay

Amen to that Clay! But her dedication to the breed and the welfare of the bitch provided her with a wonderful litter of 7!!!! And hopefully one has your name written all over it!

[vickayx]

So that woman from Texas that is running that puppy mill messaged me the other day displaying pictures of the puppies and mother. I am going to tell her I decided to go with a reputable breeder but I am not sure if I should tell her exactly why I think no one should buy from her. I don't know if that's a good or bad idea. Deep down inside I want to tell her so she knows and she should stop but like I said just really confused..

[tanza]

So that woman from Texas that is running that puppy mill messaged me the other day displaying pictures of the puppies and mother. I am going to tell her I decided to go with a reputable breeder but I am not sure if I should tell her exactly why I think no one should buy from her. I don't know if that's a good or bad idea. Deep down inside I want to tell her so she knows and she should stop but like I said just really confused..

I would just tell her you are going with a responsible breeder that does all health testing before breeding and let it go at that. I am sure she is well aware that she is a puppy miller and only cares about the almighty dollar. There are so many other things to breeding and placing puppies on top of health testing. She doesn't care who buys, just as long as they have the dollars to pay.

[DebraDownSouth]

I most definitely would tell her WHY. She may listen, she probably won't, but if you say nothing she misses the opportunity to learn.

[dcmclcm4]

I would tell her why because of the lack of health testing. I would definitely mention Fanconi Syndrome and talk about it if she does not know anything about it. I would let her know that most puppy buyers will not buy a puppy without being tested. I doubt Sheila Maxwell mentioned it! Now even some BYBs are testing their sires and dams for it.

Jennifer

[vickayx]

So I told her very simply I had found a breeder closer to me and one that is more reputable. She seemed a little upset. She had responded with I do not understand what you mean by more reputable... honestly I do not want to argue with her.

Good news tomorrow I am taking a 5 hour trip to Mass. to visit Elderado Basenjis. I am sooo sooo excited! Is there any suggestions you guys have for me about what I should ask?

[suzee]

So I told her very simply I had found a breeder closer to me and one that is more reputable. She seemed a little upset. She had responded with I do not understand what you mean by more reputable... honestly I do not want to argue with her.

Good news tomorrow I am taking a 5 hour trip to Mass. to visit Elderado Basenjis. I am sooo sooo excited! Is there any suggestions you guys have for me about what I should ask?Rocky1 on the forums is a breeder in Jackson, NJ and has been breeding Basenjis for 35 years apparently! I would totally contact her if I were you, just because she's in NJ.. y'know. I was surprised to hear that!

Good luck with the trip tomorrow! =)

[vickayx]

I believe I did. I have contacted so many people at this time my head is over flowed but I really think tomorrow will work out. I am def willing and excited to take the trip. I just found out my puppy (hopefully) was born yesterday! But I won't be able to see her because the breeder doesn't let anyone interfere with the pups until 6 weeks. I respect that.

[tanza]

Good luck on your trip.... each breeder has their own ideas/concerns about puppies... me... the more people the better and the earlier the better...

[vickayx]

even new borns?

[vickayx]

Oh and thank u for all of your support Tanza and others because of you I feel super confident in my decision about getting a puppy, and the life time commitment and joy of owning a Basenj, yall are the best!

[lvoss]

Yes, even newborns. L'Ox had visitors at a couple of hours old. I needed cottage cheese for his mom so my friend stopped by and of course wanted to see mom and baby. The next day since I worked on about a mile from home, my co-workers came over to see him.

The Time litter I co-bred with my mom had visitors at a week old. My mom wasn't going to uninvite her dinner guests they took their shoes off and washed their hands before handling the babies.

[lvoss]

Tanza co-bred my second litter with me and is the co-breeder on Sophie's litter due January 1.

[tanza]

even new borns?

Yes even newborns... with a little consideration for the Mom... (if she is nervous about visitors to her new pups) and a little thought into things like removing shoes and washing hands. If people happened to be coming from a dog show, I would be a bit more careful when they are under 2 or 3 weeks.

But again, everyone does have their own ideas.


And yup, lvoss, can't wait for those Sophie pups! Think more than 2!

[lvoss]

She is getting big and isn't lopsided like Rio was so maybe we missed a pup on the one side. I sort of feel like she is keeping the pups in some secret interdimensional space because sometimes she seems huge and other times not so much.

[renaultf1]

To the OP - honestly I wouldn't worry that you aren't meeting your pup when you go visit. Keeping a newborn warm and healthy in CA (where Tanza & lvoss are located) is a hell of a lot different than doing so in freezing MA. I'm sure that is a concern with the breeder. I have been around plenty of Eldorado dogs and have found them to have good temperaments and well socialized. I always love the second guessing done here.

[lvoss]

I sort of am offended by that statement. I don't think that keeping them warm and healthy in CA is a hell of alot different. Animal husbandry really isn't all that different state to state. I think it is far more a personal choice. Some people subscribe to belief that that they need to shelter the pups from outside world until xx age while others feel that with some common sense precautions they can be exposed to new people and benefit from those experiences while being at minimal risk. Neither Pat nor I said there was anything wrong with the personal choice to keep visitors away until 6 weeks old there are alot of people who feel that way, just not what either of us choose to do. It is a personal choice.

[tanza]

I agree Lisa.... and sort of offended by that statement also. Has nothing to do with keeping them warm... Obviously if they are in the house and in a warm room, what does that have to do with keeping them warm? And we do have mild temps here, but most mornings in the winter it is below freezing, so keep them warm is something we all are aware needs to be done, remembering that a pup first born has no reflex to shiver... hence the reason to keep the room warm. While we in California might be able to get them outdoors earlier due to the weather (which I do)... I don't believe in not exposing pups to the world and at an early age. I can tell you from experience that my very first Basenjis were sheltered when they came home here to Tanza... and did they get every darned illness that came down the pike?... that answer is YES... when I had my first litter... at 7 wks my keeper was at a lure trial... and had visitors before their eyes opened... did they grow up with less illness... you bet they did.

So while it is up to each breeder on how they raise puppies... both Lisa and I are expressing our experiences that for us it is not necessay to "lock" them away... regardless of that part of the country they are born in... as Lisa said it is a personal choice... we had chosen that at the earlier the better.

And just to add to that... I remember years ago when Vickie of Rugosa was still breeding... her pups were out in the weather.... cold, snow, rain ... whatever at 5 to 6 wks....

[Lysh]

goodluck! just go there and get a feel for everything, plus you will meet her other basenjis and get to sit down and talk and get to know each other.

we met our breeder for the first time before Hope was born, we met her a few weeks before they were due. We also got to meet and play with all her other basenjis and get a feel for everything. It was a good introduction for a first time basenji owner. We them met the puppies at two weeks old and then from about 5 wks old we seen them every weekend for a play (home at 9wks).

i understand your excitment, and how exciting it is to be waiting. i was going insane but enjoyed my puppy fix on the weekends.

[Kipawa]

Good luck on your trip.... each breeder has their own ideas/concerns about puppies... me... the more people the better and the earlier the better...
Totally agree with this... of course use common sense regarding hygiene when you meet the pups. The more the pups interact with different people, the better.

[Kipawa]

i understand your excitment, and how exciting it is to be waiting. i was going insane but enjoyed my puppy fix on the weekends.

Oh isn't THIS true! I was a vibrating mess for almost a month before we got Kipawa, as he was a 5.5 hour drive away from us. The last week was the absolute worst. I couldn't get my mind over holding him in our home for the first time. When we saw Kevin park in the driveway I went out to meet him. He scooped Kipawa out of the back (was in a travel crate) and handed him over to me. I was just blown away - our boy was finally with us, finally home. :) I will never forget that beautiful, wonderful first moment. :) Yours will be just as exciting!

[DebraDownSouth]

I also agree that early handling and other people, voices, movements are great. We had one couple at the vet's office when they got their tails docked and dew claws removed (Rotties) and they visited the puppies 2 to 3 times a week til they took their pup home. LOL and then brought him over to visit almost weekly til we moved to GA.

I do consider some people risky-- particularly if they foster younger dogs, have a puppy at home, work for a vet. I know the vet thing seems odd, but I have had 2 friends get parvo in their home from visits by vet techs. I have also only had 2 rottie pups I placed get Parvo-- BOTH owned by people who had vet jobs (vet tech and vet student who worked at a vets). Yeah, you can tell them go home, change clothes, take shoes off at door. Both claimed they asked them to and had them remove shoes outside. I don't foster with puppies in the house either just to keep stress lower. But humans... I consider it a boon. I have mentored new folks to the breed by having them come HELP with whelping. :)

Long ago, with my first litter, I didn't let them OUTSIDE til they were 6 weeks old. Yes, I lived in an apt and we had flea issues where you could see the fleas jumping even though they sprayed so often and so much we were toxic. But the truth is, I didn't want my 2nd litter outside either and we were in our own home, isolated yard and fencing. Fortunately MY mentor chewed me out, talked about how the more varied experiences they have young the better, and I changed. Keep in mind these were Rottweilers, but it isn't different for any breed. More experiences are good.

If the breeder is giving them lots of experiences and only limiting strangers, not an issue though I would obviously agree not in any way necessary. You might ask if the breeder is getting a lot of contact with people in her family/friends etc and simply limiting others. I also know a breeder who won't let potential owners see the pups til she decides where each pup is going as she said she got tired of people visiting early, CHOOSING a pup they wanted and then bailing when she decided that pup needed to go elsewhere.

[tanza]

I think it is important that Breeders make it clear that the "breeder" picks the puppy for the homes based on the new owners life style..... might be that there could be a choice between 2, but usually not.. at least not in my experience. Different of course if the potential home is with an experience show home..... then of course they are looking for a top show prospect.

[sharronhurlbut]

I look forward to seeing photos of your new puppy.

[khanis]

Sells each for average $1000 = $60,000 (less 1 pup from each litter which they keep since resp. breeders first breed for themselves - 12 x $1,000 - $12,000 or $48,000)- not my area of expertise), but I think one can see the general idea!;)

Don't forget those pups that we *give* to folks that lost one of our previous dogs to something dreadful like Fanconi Syndrome, etc. I know everyone hasn't dealt with it, but I have *replaced* (no, not that any dog can be really replaced) quite a few dogs over the last 4-5 years.




And just to add to that... I remember years ago when Vickie of Rugosa was still breeding... her pups were out in the weather.... cold, snow, rain ... whatever at 5 to 6 wks....

This year we did not have snow, but since there had been quite a bit of freezing rain, my pups didn't venture outdoors until close to 5 weeks old... normally they start going outdoors to potty at 4-4.5 weeks old. They learn quickly to potty fast then you get to come back inside to the warm house!! This has been the easiest way I have found to potty-train them... and they CRY to go outside by the time they are 6 weeks old.

[nomrbddgs]

Although the southern states are generally warmer, they do have colder nights. I agree with Lisa and Pat that animal husbandry isn't much different in CA than it is in Canada. It's about the animals abilities as newborns and the social structure. And that is also different from person to person. I like people coming in at about 4-5 weeks and socializing. I find it makes a nicer temperment to have other scents and smells around them and picking them up. My younger pups will go to anyone with a wagging tail, while the older ones are a little more standoffish.

[tanza]

This year we did not have snow, but since there had been quite a bit of freezing rain, my pups didn't venture outdoors until close to 5 weeks old... normally they start going outdoors to potty at 4-4.5 weeks old. They learn quickly to potty fast then you get to come back inside to the warm house!! This has been the easiest way I have found to potty-train them... and they CRY to go outside by the time they are 6 weeks old.

Exactly Kathy.... My Maggii's litter was born the winter of 1994 and it rained almost every single day from December to February. Those pups didn't get out doors much because of the weather. But all my other litters were outdoors to potty on the early, early morning frosty ground from 4 to 41/2 wks. And it is true, by 6 weeks they were screaming to go outside to potty. I very, very rarely had poop in the puppy pen after 4wks.

[vickayx]

So we made the trip in one day and back. It was so amazing! The breeders were sweet and very helpful with all my questions. They asked me allot of questions. I got to see her dogs and she also had a mother dog and her 6 pups who were 8 weeks old they were hilarious, running around, and playing with each other trying to eat my shoes and coat. The litter I will be getting from is due around the 26th of this month. I told her that I prefer a female but I told her honestly I just want a healthy happy dog. She said at around 8 weeks she will let me know what dog she chooses for me according to the dogs personalty and with ours which I think is great! I like the whole match making aspect. They were all healthy, rambunctious, and friendly and the mother dog was such a sweet heart. She curled right next to me and she looked so comfortable as she watched her pups. The experience was great I can't wait to go back in March when I can pick my puppy up!

[lisastewart]

Always better to go meet with a breeder and see the dogs first hand, congratulations on your upcoming puppy. If you are interested in spring puppy get togethers, there are quite a lot of basenjis who race in NJ, and I can put you in touch with them. Socializing is very important.

[tanza]

Glad that you had a good visit... The wait will be worth it!

[vickayx]

I'm glad I have to wait because it gives me enough time to prepare and be fully ready.. I like things to make sense

[krunzer]

Good luck with your new pup. Glad you took the advice of everyone here, all we want to do is help people make an informed decision. Hope to hear more from you in the future as you take on your first B buddy!

[Kipawa]

I'm glad I have to wait because it gives me enough time to prepare and be fully ready.. I like things to make sense

You sound a lot like me. I loved the time I had to prepare (puppy proof) our place before Kipawa finally came to us forever. :)