For Sale/Waiting List Post Rules: Read First

[Alex]

For Sale/Waiting List Post Rules

In the interest of fairness for all, and since we do not charge at all for advertising, please do not advertise the fact that you have Basenjis for sale or starting a waiting list in another person's thread, your signature or posts outside this category. We need to keep all the forums on topic.

Members should be aware that Basenji Forums For Sale or Wanted thread is a buyer beware environment; Basenji Forums is not responsible for what happens in transactions initiated through these venues. Moderators are provided to read threads and ensure rules (such as listing format) are enforced; however, their role is not to serve as a mediator in disputes.

Violation of the Basenji Forums rules or a pattern of negative feedback could result in the suspension of your privilege to buy and sell through this forum or, ultimately, removal from this site.

POSTING RULES AND GUIDELINES:


You may post a thread in the Basenjis For Sale or Wanted when you have Baenjis available for sale.
You may post a thread in the Basenjis For Sale or Wanted when your Basenjis are not born yet and you are starting a waiting list.
We will not allow any brokers, puppy mills, agents, or anyone posting Basenjis for sale if they are not in your possession. You MUST have the Basenji(s) in your possession if you want to post in here unless you have permission in advance.
Spamming is not allowed, you may only post ONE Basenji For Sale/Waiting List thread per litter.
Advertising posts in threads that are not related WILL BE deleted, and a warning given. If it continues to happen, and you avoid our warnings, your account may be suspended or even banned.
You may bump up your thread ONE TIME only. Any posts you make to your own thread that do not answer any questions will be considered a bump.
Replies to other Basenji For Sale/Waiting List threads may not include your contact information.
We do not allow Basenji For Sale/Waiting List posts or solicitations from breeders outside of the United States and Canada.

Sellers, please use the following formats:

FOR SALE FORMAT

This format must be followed in EACH For Sale Post. New Basenji for sale threads without the below information WILL BE DELETED.

You must title your post with your City and State
Example For Sale: Basenji boy(s) For Sale in Jersey City, NJ/NY/PA

-------------------
Your name:
Your city, state:
Your phone numbers/email:
Basenji(s) For Sale:
Age of Basenji(s):
Current weight of Basenji(s) for sale:
Weight of Basenji(s) parents:
Parents health tests:
Registration if any (AKC, Basenji Clubs, etc):
Price:
Age when puppies will be ready to be taken home:
Do you ship your Basenjis:
-------------------

WAITING LIST FORMAT

This format must be followed in EACH Waiting List Post. New waiting list threads without the below information WILL BE DELETED.

You must title your post with your City and State
Example: Waiting List in Jersey City, NJ/NY/PA

-------------------
Your name:
Your city, state:
Your phone number: Contact by PM for phone number
Weight of Basenji(s) parents:
Parents health tests:
Registration if any (AKC, Basenji Clubs, etc):
Price:
Due date for puppies to be born:
Age when puppies will be ready to be taken home:
Do you ship your Basenjis:
-------------------

Please let us know if you see any posts where these rules are broken. We will take care of it immediately. Your (poster of forsale/wanted ad) post maybe deleted and account may be suspended if you break the rules.

If you have any questions or concerns, please privately message us.
Thank you.

[Quercus]

Hey admin...since all that other info about the dogs for sale is available, how about a space to include the health testing their parents have had?

[Quercus]

And while I am thinking about the topic ;) how about a section for rescue basenjis available for adoption?

[Alex]

Hi Andrea,

Thank you for the suggestion, we added Parents Health Tests section. The adoption ads can be posted either in this forum or in the Rescues & New Homes Needed (http://www.basenjiforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=43) forum, which we already have.

We are thinking maybe to modify this forum title to Basenjis For Sale, Adoption or Wanted (http://www.basenjiforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44). What do you think?

[Quercus]

I am not sure, but I would love to hear opinions from others about whether they should be together, or separate. My hunch is together, because it would give the rescue dogs a chance to be seen by people who are interested in buying a dog...some people don't even know there are rescues available when they start looking into the breed.

I do have to say, that it makes me a little uncomfortable to have for sale basenjis listed here with no qualifications regarding the integrity of the seller/breeder; mainly because I think we could lose the opportunity to educate buyers who may not realize what they are getting into.

[Alex]

Hi Andrea,

Maybe you can suggest the qualifications for a good breeder, and we can add them to the guidelines.

Thank you,

[Quercus]

<<Maybe you can suggest the qualifications for a good breeder, and we can add them to the guidelines.>>

That can be kind of a sticky wicket....there are lots of different opinions on what makes a good breeder (see the good breeder vs. bad breeder thread) I wouldn't feel comfortable using my own set of guidelines in a forum like this....but if other people were interested in building a consensus, I would be happy to help.

[lvoss]

The BCOA website has an interactive guide available at http://www.basenjiclub.com/learn Part of the guide is a section called screening breeders.

Also, many people just starting to research the breed may not be aware that many responsible breeders maintain a waiting list and pups are often spoken for before they are born. It may be appropriate to have a place for breeders to post information on the parents of an upcoming litter with contact information so people can get on those waiting lists.

[Quercus]

That would be a great link to have available in this section, Lisa. I'd forgotten there was so much info there. Thanks for posting that.

I like your idea about listing upcoming litters too...that could allow buyers to have discussion with different people without feeling the pressure, of having to commit right away.

[annandael]

Here's a question...why do you insist on us posting our telephone numbers?

Also, who is to protect us from identity theft? I have been informed all one needs is a name and number.

[Alex]

Hi Annandael,

We do not think that a phone number/first name can cause identity theft as phone numbers are publicly available information.

We are not asking sellers to provide their social security or credit information in the for sale post. Those things can cause ID theft for sure.

If the post is made by a legitimate breeder who has nothing to hide, we do not see why he/she would have a problem posting their phone number.

Most of the breeder websites that we looked at had a phone number listed on there, so potential buyers feel more comfortable and can talk to a real person.

We will look into this some more and maybe either hide the contact info in the post for unregestered users or make an exception to the rule.

Thank you for bringing this up.

[YodelDogs]

I like the basic for sale/waiting list format but I am unclear why weight is a required listing?

[annandael]

Well as my husband is military and it is my private cell phone number that isn't listed...I do not feel comfortable posting it over a public forum or my website. If someone would like to ask more about my plans, they may e-mail me and I will be happy to give my number to them.

When I have a LAN I will probably post that on my site...but until then I will not.

And yes, the weight information is interesting...

[JazzysMom]

I would think the weight information just helps to give an idea of the general appearance of the dogs. If the parents are 35 lb dogs, then you may be looking at larger-than-standard puppies. Or if they are 18 lbs, then there may be issues with that as well.
Anyway, it made sense to me to list the weight info.
I could be way off base as to the reasons though; it was just my uneducated WAG.

[lvoss]

I was thinking the same thing but weight really doesn't tell you about size. When I went to evaluate a rescue she was right around standard height but had been so overfed she weighed 40 pounds. I had never seen a dog so fat. I also don't know many people that weigh their dogs on a regular basis. Mine are only weighed when we go to the vet.

Lisa

[JazzysMom]

Maybe, but it can give you an idea of the general health and care that the parents have received also.

[Quercus]

Well, most healthy basenjis are going to be roughly the same weight and height...and if it matters to you whether your basenji is 15 vs.17 inches high, or 18 lbs vs. 25 lbs you'd better be meeting the breeders' dogs in person...so you have a better idea what your puppy may look like.

[JazzysMom]

I'd like to think that people would meet the buyer's dogs in person anyway before actually purchasing....but realize that's not always possible in long distance purchases.
But, if I see the breeder's adult dogs are all over or underweight,yes I would have a concern as to either the general health or the care they are given that may affect the health of the puppies.
If the average weight for a dog is around 24 lbs, then yes, I'd want to look twice at one that is only 18 lbs, or a bitch that is 15 lbs. Those are pretty small animals to be choosing for breeding. Are they too young? Are they undernourished? Poorly bred? Or just small? Can't answer those questions w/out more information or a personal visit, but it is a starting point.
But you are right, if those things don't matter to the buyer than it's irrelevent information. For those for whom it DOES matter, what is the harm in listing it?

[Quercus]

Oh, there is no harm in listing it. If I was looking for a puppy, it just wouldn't be a question I would consider asking. I would be much more interested in how tall the parents were, honestly. My bitches range from 19lbs - 20lbs...three are thin/healthy...one is chubby. My male looks perfect at 22lbs...but some would consider that thin just looking at the numbers.

My thought was that anyone who is that concerned about the weight of the parents might be looking for a show puppy...and there would be so many other components involved in the stature of the dog that stating just the weight wouldn't be that helpful in any sort of evaluation.

You make a good point about the health of the parents based on weight though...I hadn't thought of it that way. We definitely agree that everyone should try to meet their prospective breeder and dogs before purchasing :)

[JazzysMom]

>>We definitely agree that everyone should try to meet their prospective >>breeder and dogs before purchasing

That sure made the sale for us when we were looking. We met one breeder who'd sounded great via a webpage, but upon visiting the place we were immediately turned off.
And one visit with Bryan was all it took to get us {okay, well, me} excited about the dogs again, and make a decision!
We visited one additional breeder, and were happy enough with what we saw there also. But there was little doubt that it would be Bryan we got our pup from!

[khanis]

I think the weights were just to get a *rough idea.*
I had one bitch that never hit 21# until she was pregnant.. and spent most of her list at 19#.. what I considered "race weight" for a 16.5" bitch.

Then I have my "Burner" boy, who at 17.5" tall, and nary an ounce of fat, weights in at 30#. He is solid muscle.. and you can see it when he walks (sometimes we wonder if he is ont he home gym when we aren't looking!).

I think for qualifications, a good idea could be regional and national club involvement. If breeders do not belong to member clubs, one should begin to wonder why...

Health testing information would be GREAT to add to the list of info for upcoming litters and dogs for sale or adoption.

[Alex]

Hi Kathy,

Thank you for your suggestions, we will add them shortly.

[dmcarty]

I think that something that outlines the typical process so that buyers are aware of how things work with responsible reputable breeders would be helpful. I know that I bought my first basenji in the early 80's without much screening information. I didn't know what to look for and paid the price for that. Maybe some sort of statement on each option like:

Puppy - typically basenji breedres maintain a list of interested people. This is so that they are certain that the puppies they produce will have good homes waiting for them. Blank slate - that you can mess up if you are not firm and consistant.

Breeder Return - sometimes a breeder gets a puppy back for a variety of reasons like job transfer, change in living arrangements, military service etc. Still a youngish dog - screened by breeder so you will know if there are any issues.

Retired Show dog - a dog that has been shown to it's Championship or a dog who was kept for showing and didn't like it or did not grow up to be quite what the breeder expected. You get an animal used to traveling, arround people, pretty decently socialized, walks on a lead.

Young Adult- What you see is what you get - how they are is likely a good reflection of their personality especially good to determine if kids and dog work.

Rescue - can be a gem in the rough - may not have full histroy but typically committed basenji folks will be there to help you if the dog came through one of the networks.

Pet stores - you get no support from a breeder, likely came from a puppy mill, vet check doesn't mean that the puppy was screened for the likely things that might crop up in any dog or specifically in basenjis. If you buy from a pet store - you essentially support puppy mills - you may 'save' this one but you will send a message that hey these dogs sell and more will be there the next week.

Anyway something like that - might be useful to have as a readable document. Feel free to tweak, edit or dump.

[lvoss]

Diane this is a good idea. It would be good for buyers to be able to easily reference a document for information about what an OFA number means, what to look for in a contract, etc.

[Quercus]

That is a good idea Diane! Also include what we know as "backyard" breeders. People who purchase two or three basenjis to just produce puppies to make money; with no regard for temperament screening, genetic health screening, and preservation of the breed. These breeders who don't expect much commitment from their puppy buyers, and don't give them much support back. Basically, send your money, I'll send you a puppy.

I think it is really important that puppy buyers know that in most cases you will pay the same for a well bred puppy from a breeder that will give you a lifetime of support for you and your Basenji, as you will from the breeder that 'doesn't do all that fancy show stuff'....'or just sells pets'. The large majority of responsible breeders keeps a puppy or two for showing, and the rest of puppies go to pet homes, whether they could be shown or not. We don't charge more for them because their sibs are show dogs.

In the case of a responsible breeder, you will be getting a BARGAIN for the same price, because we aren't making money! The cost of the puppy basically is covering the cost it takes to produce it. Vet care, quality food, genetic screening of the parents (annually for some diseases); the cost of getting the best match for the bitch being bred can be expensive.

I think it is important to get the message out that there is no reason, once you know better, to buy from someone who isn't doing the very best they can to preserve our breed in health, temperament and type (what makes a Basenji, a Basenji)

I know everyone probably gets tired of a few of us repeating, and repeating the same POV...but it is we who end up trying to clean up the mess of dogs being produced and procured irresponsibly.

[lvoss]

Maybe a Buyer's Guide with section like Why Choose a Responsible Breeder, DeMystifying Health Testing, What are you Paying For, Making Sense of Alphabet Soup (What does that Title Mean), etc, with a glossary of terms at the end.

[tanza]

And people can go to the Basenji Club of America and read what "they should be asking a Breeder".. I also have a link to that on my site and there is a link to it on the Basenji Club of Northern California web site also...

As said, everyone is most likely sick and tired of us with our harping about these things, but all you have to do is spend some time with "throw away" dogs (and those of you that have gotten your Basenjis from rescue, that is what they were in 90% of the cases).... and can understand why we push that people do their homework and get their Basenjis for a responsible breeder

[lvoss]

The BCOA Learn site is a great resource. I think a Buyer's Guide could be a great complement to what is already there.

As both you and Andrea have stated, after doing rescue, there is no over-emphasizing how important the role of a responsible breeder is. The screening, support, health testing, early socialization are all things that are so important to finding the right fit for your household. It should also be emphasized what a difference a reputable rescue organization can make also by providing dogs that have been evaluated, health screened, and providing support for the life of the.

[dash]

I think all the things suggested are good but it may be intimidating for someone if they have no idea what they are reading. I think less info would be better so the individual would have to contact the breeder for info. Then the breeder has contact to explain everything they want to explain.

I think just some basic questions + contact information and the web link is sufficient.

And I honestly don't get sick of any of you for "harping". I respect the years of experience and knowledge you have. It is good to see you have a true love and passion for the breed and are not interested in a quick buck.

[lvoss]

The BCOA site has the questions and contact information but I don't think that people are really getting the message about WHY it is so important. I understand that the information can be a little intimidating but it needs to be out there and in an understandable format. I still get countless emails from people who say "I just want a pet, none of that other stuff matters." All of that other stuff really does matter for the everyday pet owner but they need to understand why so when they ask the right questions they can make sense of the answers.

[Quercus]

I think all the things suggested are good but it may be intimidating for someone if they have no idea what they are reading. I think less info would be better so the individual would have to contact the breeder for info. Then the breeder has contact to explain everything they want to explain.

I think just some basic questions + contact information and the web link is sufficient.

And I honestly don't get sick of any of you for "harping". I respect the years of experience and knowledge you have. It is good to see you have a true love and passion for the breed and are not interested in a quick buck.

Dash, what do you think would be intimidating? It would be great to have some input from those that are on the learning side of the equation, instead of the teaching side.

I am concerned that less info would just be less info. If someone doesn't know what questions to ask, many breeders (especially irresponsible ones) aren't going to volunteer information. As a consumer you really have to ask the questions you want answers to point blank. e.g. How many dogs in this puppy's pedigree have been Fanconi affected? How many have produced Fanconi? Does this dog have an OFA number? Will you take this puppy back at any time if my life situation changes?

If the buyer doesn't ask the questions...it is pretty much buyer beware.

I have a client right now that paid THOUSANDS of dollars of a purebred dog of a very rare breed. The dog has terrible temperament that is completely inappropriate for the breed. The person she bought the dog from will take it back, but not refund the money. The breeder of the dog will not take the dog back, nor refund her money...but she will send another puppy. There is not much I can tell this woman, other than, buyer beware. The woman she bought the dog from wouldn't let her come to her house, they did the exchange in a parking lot...pretty astounding red flag for something she was paying so much money for.

[tanza]

The problem is that if they contact people like you can find on puppyfind.com that are BYB's the breeder has nothing to tell them... and if they do not know what to ask and why, then they never find out.... they are told mostly by these people "I raise healthly Basenjis!", period... and they don't even know that there are genetic problems in our breed and in most cases don't care.. just want to make the buck... I can tell you that I would never ship a puppy to someone... either they come and personally pick it up or there is no sale, period... (unless it is someone I know and even then I prefer that the pup is personally picked up, as I don't like flying them as cargo). Look at all the BYB's that advertise "shipping"... They would not have a clue who is really buying that pup, nor do they care....

Again, while the information might get "heavy" IMO, people should be learning what they need to ask... and people need to treat buy a dog or any pet and spend as much time as they do buying a car....

[dash]

I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest--please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.

I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.

Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.

I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.

I hope this makes some sense.

[Quercus]

I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest--please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.

I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.

Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.

I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.

I hope this makes some sense.

hmmmm....now I am the opposite. I want to find as much info as I can on my own before I approach someone. For one thing, I want to sound like I kinda know what I am talking about...and I want to know enough that I can tell if they are legitimate.

I think it is a little unrealistic to expect that someone you are buying something from...especially a living being, that will be sharing your house for up to 15 years.... is responsible for educating you. To me that seems like the buyer's responsiblity. The seller's responsiblity is to be able to answer your questions to your satisfaction. Same as any business transaction.

[lvoss]

I am also like Andrea, before I make a decision I try to get as much information as possible. I do realize though that many people do not want to spend as much time doing the research. The purpose of a Buyer's Guide is to provide the information in a format that is accessible to the general public. It should be written so that it provides the information at a level that some one interested in a companion can make sense of. Using your example of learning about Space Travel. A scientist writing and article for other scientists will write in a different style and level then a scientist writing an article for the layperson who reads USA Today.

Telling people what questions to ask and giving a list of breeders will not tell them what answers to expect and why. I know people who have dogs who are suffering from genetic disorders who tell me, "I thought I asked the right questions" They did ask if the parents had any known problems and they were told "No, my vet says they are all healthy." They didn't know that they needed to ask for an OFA number, a CERF number, if the dog was strip tested, if the its sire and dam were. So it is not about just asking the questions, it is about knowing what a good answers is, what an ok answer is, and what a bad answer is.

Are there people who won't take the time to do their homework? Of Course! But that does not mean that a Buyer's Guide should not be created and posted so that people can find the information they need to make an educated purchase.

[Quercus]

Lisa, I really like the idea of a buyers guide. If we kept it simple we might be able to post it a lot of different places. And maybe even have hard copies available to breeders so when someone calls interested in puppies we can pop something in the mail to them?

Maybe this is something outreach should work on?

[lvoss]

Good idea!

[tanza]

Yes it is a good idea for outreach.... but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...

Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....

[tanza]

Yes it is a good idea for outreach.... but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...

Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....

(Opps that would be "had MUCH support)

[tanza]

I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest--please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.

I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.

Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.

I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.

I hope this makes some sense.

Well, I am a business person too, but breeding dogs is NOT a business it is a hobby, pure and simple... that that is way we breed for the love of the breed and not for profit, different then BYB's who claim to breed for the love of the breed, but make a profit... or of course puppymills.. who only breed for profit.

And while we need to teach.... I agree with Andrea and Lisa... the buyer needs to take responsibility for their actions... You are buying a living thing that you will be responsible for life.... why would you not educate yourself on that?... and what kind of pet is the best for your home?.... And yes, these are newer concepts from 30yrs ago... and breeders have learned that screeening buyers is necessary because if you look in some BYB and PM pedigrees your will see Ch stock from well known bloodlines.... As they say, live and learn....

[dash]

... the buyer needs to take responsibility for their actions..

Absolutely, but they don't and the dogs may end up in rescue or euthanized which I thought was the point of trying to get them to see as much info as possible prior to making the decision to buy from a pet store or puppyfind. Correct me if I am wrong.

A buyers guide is an excellent idea! Someone can call and then get info that they can read later about what they need to look for so they can ask the right questions.

I also think it is a good idea to advertise on puppyfind.

[Quercus]

Yes it is a good idea for outreach.... but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...

Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....

Sorry, Pat...hanging head as an ashamed member of the outreach committee who hasn't yet had a chance to deal with the FAQs. The email kind of fell of my radar, but I will go back and deal with it.

[Quercus]

<<Absolutely, but they don't and the dogs may end up in rescue or euthanized which I thought was the point of trying to get them to see as much info as possible prior to making the decision to buy from a pet store or puppyfind. Correct me if I am wrong.>>

Nope, you aren't wrong at all. I must have misunderstood what you meant. I thought you said too much info was overwhelming, and you would prefer to contact breeders to let them educate you about why you should buy from them.

[dash]

I'm sorry if I was confusing. The issue with euthanasia, rescue etc is a big problem and educating buyers is critical. I think we would all agree on that.

I am trying to figure out why someone (myself included) would buy from pet stores or puppyfind instead of going to a breeder. I believe it is convenience. So, for the potential buyer who decides to do some research elsewhere that is where I think the breeder can help. Had the breeder I contacted explained something as opposed to just saying-no, I don't have any puppies. Or even the rescue saying the same thing. (I had not heard of BRAT) I probably would have been in a different situation. I didn't know what questions to ask and I personally was bombarded by all the info online. Maybe that is just me but you asked for input from the learning side and I am definatley that.

I shouldn't put the entire burden of education on you, the breeder, that is simply not fair. So I aplogize.

[tanza]

I'm sorry if I was confusing. The issue with euthanasia, rescue etc is a big problem and educating buyers is critical. I think we would all agree on that.

I am trying to figure out why someone (myself included) would buy from pet stores or puppyfind instead of going to a breeder. I believe it is convenience. So, for the potential buyer who decides to do some research elsewhere that is where I think the breeder can help. Had the breeder I contacted explained something as opposed to just saying-no, I don't have any puppies. Or even the rescue saying the same thing. (I had not heard of BRAT) I probably would have been in a different situation. I didn't know what questions to ask and I personally was bombarded by all the info online. Maybe that is just me but you asked for input from the learning side and I am definatley that.

I shouldn't put the entire burden of education on you, the breeder, that is simply not fair. So I aplogize.

Totally no reason to apologize at all..... I think that the reason that people go to pet stores is because that is how it was done for years and years... same with buying a puppy out of the newspaper. Difference now is that is lots of information on how and why to buy a puppy/companion on the web and easier to find responsible breeders "IF" you are willing to learn first and understand why they ask questions..ggg... and WHY you as the buyer should ask questions... Also I agree there is lots of conflicting information even on line.. that is why people need to take their time... I always recommend that people personally visit with someone that has Basenjis regardless of where they intend to buy. Lisa and I always "swap" people for visits... and because we don't breed often, 99% of the time the people visiting have no expectations of getting a puppy from us, so there is no pressure... just a learning experience.
As far as pet store and even newspaper ads.. I think it is "impluse" buying... I see a cute puppy, I want that cute puppy....

[noodle]

Please could you tell me why you do not allow posts in your 'For Sale' forum from outside the US/Canada.
Thanks.

[thunderbird8588]

Hi,
am i correct in thinking that members from other countries cannot inform us if they have Puppies for sale. There are quite a few nationalities on the forum and it seems a shame.
I myself would like eventualy to find a Pup and it would be most helpful to know when litters are planned.
I think that it is a great idea to make people more aware of Dogs needing to be rescued but again maybe UK rescues and rescues in other countries wouldnt be able to use the forum.
I hope you dont think i'm being rude, i love this forum and am just saying whats on my mind.

[Rita Jean]

If a breeder and or a back yard breeder would all do there job correctly in breeding then the pet store would get a good puppy. Then the new owner would not have to worry.

Like when you buy a new car that has been out in model year for 3 or 4 months DO ANY OF YOU ever ask questions has this car had recalls and how many and what were they? Did you do your homework.

I said this once any place a puppy is bought from or gotten from free or what ever there needs to be a sheet handed to them. On it needs to be problems known and testing, food used what ever. There should be some kind of fines if they do not give this to you. AKC could send sheet about dogs when they send there paperwork. Has anyone ever ask them?

Rita Jean

[sharronhurlbut]

Rita Jean wrote...-If a breeder and or a back yard breeder would all do there job correctly in breeding then the pet store would get a good puppy. Then the new owner would not have to worry.
Rita Jean, only puppymills and bad byb sell to pet stores.
Until they are shut down, these poor breeding dogs willl be used until they are warn out and then discarded...
A quality breeder would NEVER sell to a pet store...ever!
I am not trying to be sharp..but quality breeders should never be grouped with byb or puppymillers..

[renaultf1]

AKC could send sheet about dogs when they send there paperwork. Has anyone ever ask them?

Rita Jean

They already do. When I got Liyah's registration papers from the AKC, there was a basenji breed information flyer (Congratulations on Your New Basenji) from the BCOA included in the package. It covers history, care/exercise/training, personality, and health concerns (including Fanconi & the linked marker test).

I got the same sheet when Ruby's registration was changed so I am her owner...that was 1.5 years ago.

[Rita Jean]

Excuse me I would not know what the AKC did with a flyer I just got around last Friday to mailing Jaycee's into AKC.

Now if people get this information and do not go back to the store or breeder or follow through on the testing then that is another issue.

So you need to find away to be able to do something to pet stores get them more or less shut down and then it will stop some of the bad things. As I have always been told in my life talk is cheap. Answer me this in all years you have been saying this that is bad
breeding and so called breeders what have you done or really tried to do to stop this or make it better?????

How many have you rescued be a B or another dog? How many times have you went out and helped with groups? How much do you yourself really get in and do something other than talk about it ???

[Quercus]

Excuse me I would not know what the AKC did with a flyer I just got around last Friday to mailing Jaycee's into AKC.

Now if people get this information and do not go back to the store or breeder or follow through on the testing then that is another issue.

So you need to find away to be able to do something to pet stores get them more or less shut down and then it will stop some of the bad things. As I have always been told in my life talk is cheap. Answer me this in all years you have been saying this that is bad
breeding and so called breeders what have you done or really tried to do to stop this or make it better?????

How many have you rescued be a B or another dog? How many times have you went out and helped with groups? How much do you yourself really get in and do something other than talk about it ???


:eek: Wow! Who are you addressing in this post? Lots of us have done all kinds of outreach, rescue, education...I don't think you really know any of us well enough to know to what extent we have helped vs. talked.....

All of the regular breeder-posters here have done rescue, contacted our politicians about dog laws, provided support and advice to folks who have purchased puppy mill dogs, provided monetary support for puppy mill rescue situations...

There are several people who post here regularly who are VERY involved in rescue....

I am not sure why you are so angry at other posters?

[Basenjimamma]

I got my papers the other day, the ones from BCOA, when I received Otis' AKC papers.

[Quercus]

Please could you tell me why you do not allow posts in your 'For Sale' forum from outside the US/Canada.
Thanks.

This is the most recent post that brought this thread to the surface again...I didn't want it to get lost, because I think it is a good question; particularly since we have more and more Basenji people from Europe.

[Rita Jean]

I did not say just breeders what I said was breeders AND OR backyard breeders would do there job when people get there puppy they would not have to worry. With having been said what some of you may seem to think are backyard breeders might be yes but no one is 100 % correct all of the time. So to tell me that 100% of the time that pet stores ONLY EVER get puppies for backyard breeder. Now should one of those puppies come from a good breeder but bought at store and there is something wrong with it ANSWER this 100 % your sure they would own up to it.

It's not Just backyard breeders and I HATE them more than most but I have done my share on rescue and still our family does there share on rescue mostly akita's but done pom's and rott's.

I am not angry at any poster way sharronhurlbut came back. No one is perfect and there are all walks of life. I wish all aniamls never had health problems and every body could tell the TRUTH but we all know what a wish is.

Rita Jean

[tanza]

I did not say just breeders what I said was breeders AND OR backyard breeders would do there job when people get there puppy they would not have to worry. With having been said what some of you may seem to think are backyard breeders might be yes but no one is 100 % correct all of the time. So to tell me that 100% of the time that pet stores ONLY EVER get puppies for backyard breeder. Now should one of those puppies come from a good breeder but bought at store and there is something wrong with it ANSWER this 100 % your sure they would own up to it.

It's not Just backyard breeders and I HATE them more than most but I have done my share on rescue and still our family does there share on rescue mostly akita's but done pom's and rott's.

I am not angry at any poster way sharronhurlbut came back. No one is perfect and there are all walks of life. I wish all aniamls never had health problems and every body could tell the TRUTH but we all know what a wish is.

Rita Jean

Pet stores get puppies from puppy brokers who get them from puppy mills, with the sometimes Mom/Pop pet store might get them from a Backyard Breeder. I can say without a doubt that there is no "Basenji" the comes from a responsible breeder that has ever sold a puppy to a pet store. If they did, they are no longer a responsible breeder, period. And I will stand a support that statement to anyone, anytime.

And pet stores are a small part of the problem now days... most of the BYB's are selling over the internet, they don't need that 3rd party outlet... takes away from the profit.

[Rita Jean]

Pat I understand but it seems and I say again seems like to some on here that there are only certain breeders that are any good and eveyone else is nothing. I can tell you were I got my first akita was a breeder and yes some went to brokers and stores. I was at the breeder and I can only hope and wish that some day I have a home that is as clean as her kennel. You did not even go in without cover over your head and covers on your shoes. Now tell me because she sold to brokers or stores is she no longer any good.

So just maybe and I say maybe if more responsible breeders help not sold help pet stores maybe can stop a little of the problems. Are you saying that any one that sells over the internet is no good?

Example person get's two B's and in a year or two has puppies. Has done the Fanconi and what ever test they can do for there age and test the puppies tells new owner all they know and can they are no good. They are not really big breeder but still breeder they are no good is this what you are saying.

[tanza]

Pat I understand but it seems and I say again seems like to some on here that there are only certain breeders that are any good and eveyone else is nothing. I can tell you were I got my first akita was a breeder and yes some went to brokers and stores. I was at the breeder and I can only hope and wish that some day I have a home that is as clean as her kennel. You did not even go in without cover over your head and covers on your shoes. Now tell me because she sold to brokers or stores is she no longer any good.

So just maybe and I say maybe if more responsible breeders help not sold help pet stores maybe can stop a little of the problems. Are you saying that any one that sells over the internet is no good?

Example person get's two B's and in a year or two has puppies. Has done the Fanconi and what ever test they can do for there age and test the puppies tells new owner all they know and can they are no good. They are not really big breeder but still breeder they are no good is this what you are saying.

Sorry... there is no responsible breeder that would place puppies in a pet store... no way .... sorry... and I am saying that 90% of people that sell over the internet are NOT responsible breeder.. there are a few breeders that put ads on the internet to try and go against the BYB's..... and hope that they read, learn, understand how to find a responsible breeder.... and honestly.. if they are responsible ... they don't need to put puppies on the internet.. they have reservations list for any litters they are planning.

[lvoss]

A responsible breeder by definition is responsible for the puppies they produce for their entire lives that means taking on the responsibility of screening homes and taking back those pups at any age for any reason for their entire lives. The minute a person sells a puppy to a broker or pet store they can no longer meet this definition. They have no idea where that puppy will end up nor do they care.

[JazzysMom]

Please could you tell me why you do not allow posts in your 'For Sale' forum from outside the US/Canada.
Thanks.

Good point Andrea... let's keep the question of the day at the forefront so hopefully an answer can be presented.

[lvoss]

Please could you tell me why you do not allow posts in your 'For Sale' forum from outside the US/Canada.
Thanks.

Though it is against the forum rule to post "For Sale" ads from outside the US/Canada, breeders are allowed to announce their breeding plans or litter births in the Breeding section.

[sharronhurlbut]

Also, quality breeders do their breeding to improve the breed they love.
They don't do it for $$ or because the have a male and female.
As posted on other areas, quality breeders usually make NO $$ on the pups...

[Basenjimamma]

Back to the for sale outside of the states question...if for instance our European members post their litters for sale, why would that be against the rules? I guess they would be aiming for european buyers? or is it common for buyers from here to get their B's in Europe and have them sent over here via plane? It seems a very long trip for a dog, I know I hate those cross atlantic trips with a passion and we do them yearly.

[thunderbird8588]

I too wonder why it is against forum rules for breeders to post litters for sale from other countries?

[africanbasenji]

Sorry... there is no responsible breeder that would place puppies in a pet store... no way .... sorry... and I am saying that 90% of people that sell over the internet are NOT responsible breeder.. there are a few breeders that put ads on the internet to try and go against the BYB's..... and hope that they read, learn, understand how to find a responsible breeder.... and honestly.. if they are responsible ... they don't need to put puppies on the internet.. they have reservations list for any litters they are planning.

Hello, Tanza..
The way If the breeder shouldnt put on net the a pup! Good breeders must be very wariliy about when and how much plan, do litters! We shouldnt do litter only why - somebody will buy them of course... its sad! Our sire is not yet made, but I have 4 (2pet, 2 breeder) fix people to waiting for my pup... this is the best, I think!!!

[tanza]

Hello, Tanza..
The way If the breeder shouldnt put on net the a pup! Good breeders must be very wariliy about when and how much plan, do litters! We shouldnt do litter only why - somebody will buy them of course... its sad! Our sire is not yet made, but I have 4 (2pet, 2 breeder) fix people to waiting for my pup... this is the best, I think!!!

Exactly, breeders (responsible ones) will have reservations for puppies before they breed. When the pups are born they will already have potential new homes... responsible breeders do not breed and then has to advertise them in the internet for sale.

Do not mistake this as responsible breeders should not put ads on many of these sites, because they should. We need ads from responsible breeder to try and teach people what a responsible breeder is and how to fine one. A few of us on this Forum have ads from time to time on NextDayPets or PuppyFind, but it is for education when they contact you about buying a Basenji.

[africanbasenji]

Exactly, breeders (responsible ones) will have reservations for puppies before they breed. When the pups are born they will already have potential new homes... responsible breeders do not breed and then has to advertise them in the internet for sale.

Do not mistake this as responsible breeders should not put ads on many of these sites, because they should. We need ads from responsible breeder to try and teach people what a responsible breeder is and how to fine one. A few of us on this Forum have ads from time to time on NextDayPets or PuppyFind, but it is for education when they contact you about buying a Basenji.

Yes, I think the same ;) Good to se that your are responsible about your Basenjis! Everybody should learn the responsibility...
hugs, B

[etzbseder]

Pat, I just looked at your site, and it only lists one litter this year. I thought that you were going to have two?

[tanza]

Pat, I just looked at your site, and it only lists one litter this year. I thought that you were going to have two?

I am only listing the one right now, as we are not for sure that we all agree on the sire for the other co-breeding. If we can't agree on the sire after all, we will not do a co-breeding. I had thought that we had agreed, but turns out I jumped the gun a little to quickly.

[etzbseder]

Ok, no problem. You know where I stand in my desires for a puppy. I love the fact that all the puppies and parents are taken into consideration an are planned for before breeding. It really decreases the chance of issues.

[tanza]

Ok, no problem. You know where I stand in my desires for a puppy. I love the fact that all the puppies and parents are taken into consideration an are planned for before breeding. It really decreases the chance of issues.

Yup... I know, I still hope that it might work out, but time will tell. We are looking at other possible studs to use.

[Alex]

We came up with the US/Canada restriction initially to protect our forum users from potential fraud which we have seen too many times happen when the seller is located overseas.

Also, since the breeder would be located far away in another country it would be quite difficult for him/her to provide support a responsible breeder should provide to the buyer located in the US/Canada.

Since the date of our initial for sale rules post we have gained a lot more international users on the forum who can buy and sell within their own region. We are open to suggestions how rules can be potentially revised to include international members.

[tanza]

There are not many that post Basenjis or pups for sale here, at least not by responsible breeders. We may announce a litter that we are planning but not that we have pups for sale. I don't think that should be any different the our member breeders overseas. Then if a Forum member is interested they can contact that person privately for more information and it is their responsibility to do the research about the breeder and things like health testing. I do not think this forum should be used to sell puppies. The few that have posted here are "in my opinion" less then responsible.

But nothing wrong with posting breeding plans, different the posting puppies for sale

[snorky998]

Pat, I have to agree with your statement of "I do not think this forum should be used to sell puppies. The few that have posted here are "in my opinion" less then responsible."

I think it would do this forum proud to have the thread be, Basenji's for Rescue, Re-homing, Fostering &/or Transport.

Just my HO.

[Alex]

snorky998, thank you for your response. We already have a whole category for Basenji Rescue.

http://www.basenjiforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

Pat, I agree with you, we will consider the "Breeding Plans" format for those breeders who want to announce their breeding plans.

[tanza]

I think that is a good way to go, then people can announced their planned litters and the Forum doesn't become a place to just sell puppies....

[dmcarty]

I understand rescue - I have done rescue - but remember - by providing homes for these dogs who are in situations through no fault of their own - you are supporting the production of puppies from puppy mills. By promoting rescue over purchace from a reputable breeder - the PM's continue breeding because they do not care and reputable breeder stop - because we do.

There are many other breeds having this very same discussion - no easy answers but be wary of promoting rescue to the detriment of the responsibly bred - pure bred dog.

[dash]

I understand rescue - I have done rescue - but remember - by providing homes for these dogs who are in situations through no fault of their own - you are supporting the production of puppies from puppy mills. By promoting rescue over purchace from a reputable breeder - the PM's continue breeding because they do not care and reputable breeder stop - because we do.

There are many other breeds having this very same discussion - no easy answers but be wary of promoting rescue to the detriment of the responsibly bred - pure bred dog.

Are you saying these dogs should not be rescued?? That can't be right. I don't understand how rescuing dogs from a shelter means we are supporting puppy mills. I totally get the purchasing from the pet stores. That just seems a stretch.

[lvoss]

I don't think that is what Diane is saying. What she is saying is that by promoting rescues above responsibly bred dogs people inadvertently perpetuate the puppy mill cycle. These dogs end up in rescue because their breeders have no need to take responsibility for them because rescue will be there to clean up after them meanwhile responsible breeders lose good homes to rescue and breed less and less making it harder for people to find a responsible breeder to buy from and so the cycle continues.

[Quercus]

Are you saying these dogs should not be rescued?? That can't be right. I don't understand how rescuing dogs from a shelter means we are supporting puppy mills. I totally get the purchasing from the pet stores. That just seems a stretch.

I think the idea is that so many responsible people are now being told by the media and animal rights groups that the ONLY ethical thing to do is to adopt a pet rather than purchase one. It hurts respsonsible breeders because we breed to continue the existance of a breed that we love...we need to find wonderful homes for the puppies that we can't keep. A lot of those wonderful homes are being filled by dogs who were rescued, after being given up, after they were purchased from an irresponsible breeder who didn't take the dog back when the situation they sold it into failed to be a forever home. That was a horrible sentence...but it is early here...

No one here believes that dogs shouldn't be rescued...of course they should...but it does make fewer homes for carefully bred dogs, and it forces responsible breeders to breed fewer dogs. So that equals fewer well bred, healthy basenjis out there....

[Basenjimamma]

I understand what has been said, but waht should we do? There seems to be no way to win in this one. If we rescue all the dumped, lost and unwanted B's, it fills the homes of potential pure bred buyers but if we don't rescue,more are out there on the streets. If it is even possible to states this , I would say...I think a lot of potentail buyers balk at the price for a B from some reputable breeders ( I understand the pricing, I have seen the several layouts of as to where the money goes, when you breed dogs), so therefor looking at a rescue "is more affordable" , and they get the sense of, not only did I help this poor helpless dog, but I got a nice dog for not spending a fortune..BUT if BRAT was to charge more then the rescues wouldn't go either. I think a lot of these problems stems from the ease of breeeding and selling dogs, meaning, there is no entity that controls it. If the upper management, i.e state governments or the like set certain pretty hard rules for these breeders(backyard and puppymills), maybe there would be fewer dogs left to rescue...Do I make any sense?

[dash]

What she is saying is that by promoting rescues above responsibly bred dogs people inadvertently perpetuate the puppy mill cycle. These dogs end up in rescue because their breeders have no need to take responsibility for them because rescue will be there to clean up after them meanwhile responsible breeders lose good homes to rescue and breed less and less making it harder for people to find a responsible breeder to buy from and so the cycle continues.

I think this is assuming that the puppy mill or backyard breeders care what happens to their dogs once they are sold. We all agree they do not. They could care less if the dogs are rescued, euthanized, hit by car etc once they get paid. I honestly think you are giving them too much credit.

You have a valid point about losing good homes from responsible breeders. I really feel the solution is education. And as Andrea said, the media does trash breeders and encourages rescue. That is not right either way. There are pluses and minuses for both. I try not to influence someone based on my opinions and allow them to see the benefits of both sides. If I have done otherwise, I apologize.

As far as what this post was started about, I don't see any reason why someone could not post their pups for sale. I understand that may make some of you feel that they are not responsible for doing so, but ultimately, it is the purchaser's/breeder's decision to make. I also don't agree that having pups for sale in itself necessarily makes them an unresponsible breeder.

[YodelDogs]

If the upper management, i.e state governments or the like set certain pretty hard rules for these breeders(backyard and puppymills), maybe there would be fewer dogs left to rescue...Do I make any sense?

I remember reading something about how the overwhelming majority of AKC registered puppies came from "one time breeders", backyard breeders who never had more than one litter. BYB's typically wait until their pups are old enough to sell and put an ad in the newspaper or on the internet or maybe just a sign out in front of their house. In a large city, there may be 200 or more litters of pups advertised in the newspaper each week. How many officials would it take to go around to every single BYB to make sure they followed breeding laws? Right. It just can't be done.

In cities where breeding laws are proposed or approved, it isn't the BYBs who are affected but rather the responsible breeders since they are the ones who can easily be found. The people who are already breeding ethically, the ones who are NOT part of the pet overpopulation and homeless pets problems, are the very ones who get targetted to be harrassed.

Laws aren't the solution. Education is.

[Basenjimamma]

I agree with education being the ultimate solution, however with the way americans are today, education will not work. We tend to only listen to what we want to hear and when we hear something we don't want to hear we ignore it, and still proceed with what we were recommended NOT to do. When the decision backfires we can always "dump the dog, cat or whatever have you, in a pound somewhere and the decision is no longer ours to worry about". In Europe we don't even have this option, at least not in Sweden ( at least not when I checked last, a while back) It is called accountability..Very few average people living in America know what accountability is..there is always somebody there to take care of messes being made.
I wish there was a way to not have so many dogs roaming the streets, and being put down on a daily basis, it is absolutely heart breaking, education will help some, but it won't stop it. In my honest, humble opinion.