Why? Nip & Brawl

[Duke]

Maybe I haven't read the book on this, but as my two are going at it - again - for the zillionth time . . . Why do they do it? I think they enjoy it, and sometimes they sound like they want to kill each other. Do you think it's a game? They seem to have to do this every morning - after potty - after eating - and just because. They'll stop & get a drink together (best friends) then pick up where they left off. I see sometimes it starts over a chewy, buy why sometimes for nothing? I'm baffled with the behavior. :confused:

[Quercus]

That *sounds like play....but hard to know without seeing. Querk makes horrible sounding playing noises...and then he gets so carried away with teasing the girls (by biting their butts) that then they roar right back at him...but in the end, there are no hard feelings.

Ariel is going thru some stuff with the highest status bitch in each group (Ivy and Bella) Right now she can run with both groups. But she is very possesive over nylabones (of all things!) and she WILL NOT back down to the older dogs. There are occasional shouting matches, where I intervene by stepping between them, and talking calmly, and then they are fine...but it DOES worry me.

In your situation, between one mature male, and one immature female, I wouldn't worry much. The males love to taunt the girls, and the girls love to bitch at the boys...how do you think they got the name ;) I would guess they are just sorting out who is in charge of what...in the end, Daisy will probably be in charge of everything ;)

She is ADORABLE, by the way! We need to see more pics! Have you heard how the other pups and mom are doing?

[Duke]

Thank you Andrea! She is real sweet and cuddly to people. I posted some pics today in the Members Gallery. :)

LisaM & WandaP at BCOSW are keeping good tabs on Abby's pups. They will do an update on the website soon as they get pics from all the puppy owners. They have Daisy's pics & info. I have one pic of the red & white girl who's new name is Lucy. I will add to the Show Off thread soon. Lisa told me that all of the pups have Basenji ears and tails. Lucy looks most Basenji of them all. Daisy doesn't bark though, normally very quiet except with bursts of growls during the brawls. Duke is THE loudest. Daisy has a dainty sound - her vocals are way unlike Duke's loud schrieking bark.:eek:

During the brawls, Duke will mouth her whole neck. Sometimes drag Daisy by her collar, nip ears, legs, pull her cheeks. :( She's a tough one who goes back for more. She nips him wherever she can. Sometimes Daisy yipes (ow!). Sometimes she's provokes Duke. :confused: Maybe she will be the boss, but Duke isn't going to let that happen easily. Will try not to worry and try to "calmly" interrupt when they get out of hand. My knee-jerk reaction is the shout "CUT IT!" So atleast they hear and watch me. Sometimes I'll take one of them outside alone.

Sounds like Ariel is holding her ground pretty good. Interesting about the nylabones - Ariel not backing down. Daisy won't back down while brawling with Duke either. Except when Daisy gets a toy in her mouth, Duke walks over and takes it from her. When I see him do it, I tell Duke to "leave it". He does - begrudgingly. (rather a chewy than a shoe) Ohhh so it goes . . .

[tanza]

Typically bitches do rule the house... they might let the boys think they do, but in reality, girls rule.... Mouthing the neck is normal.... along with the other things you describe... and sounds like they will work it out, OK... and yes the noise can be unreal....gggg
It is really a good thing if Daisy will let him take a toy... that is a good sign that she and he have a pretty good relationship....

[lvoss]

I agree with Andrea that it is difficult to tell from just writing exactly what is going on. Mine play hard and rough. Rio is becoming less scabby around her neck as Sophie learns better bite control but they both nip and bite in play with each other. I would say at least once a day they have a really good wrestling match that occasionally expands into a 4 way free for all as the older two adults join in. Mine are not very vocal in their play usually and have various levels of play. I will see if I can get some video and figure out how to post it.

[jys1011]

Typically bitches do rule the house... they might let the boys think they do, but in reality, girls rule.... Mouthing the neck is normal.... along with the other things you describe... and sounds like they will work it out, OK... and yes the noise can be unreal....gggg
It is really a good thing if Daisy will let him take a toy... that is a good sign that she and he have a pretty good relationship...

We have plenty of these same exact incidents here. The sounds are much more unnerving then they intend to be. So long as they don't hurt each other I don't get involved.

[Quercus]

<<It is really a good thing if Daisy will let him take a toy... that is a good sign that she and he have a pretty good relationship....>>

I agree, Pat. And I never interfere with a dog taking a toy from another, unless it looks like it is going to evolve into a fight. I think you can do a lot more harm by trying to *make them "play nice" than just letting them sort things out on their own. Of course, only when we are talking about both dogs being okay with their method of "sharing"

[tanza]

Exactly Andrea.... most times if you are around enough Basenjis, you can pick up pretty quickly when that is going to be a problem at a later date... and you can pick up on what is normal play.. and what is not... One thing that I learned about fights... it is when they get quiet.. and and are fighting that there is big trouble..... Once you have a "want to be" in the group chances are pretty slim to none that they would ever really get alone...

[jys1011]

Ditto Pat- If it gets quiet & the stares begin darting back & forth then I know there will be trouble :eek: SO as long as there is noise then I know it's ok and they're working it out.

[Duke]

I would guess they are just sorting out who is in charge of what...
So to answer the "Why" question, the nipping and brawling is about who's in charge? GEESH! They have a short memory. Because it has to be sorted out over and over and . . . Haha!! :rolleyes: Will this go on until one day Daisy is big enough to wrap her jaws around Dukes neck? It is unnerving to sit back and watch the assaults. Dog speak - I guess. I'll let them be best I can but sometimes, I can't take it when the sounds escalate for too long.
If it gets quiet & the stares begin darting back & forth then I know there will be trouble :eek:
I've seen this happen twice. :eek: :eek: Then it's over. Don't know who won. A few minutes ago, Daisy on sofa staring down at Duke - Duke turned away. Is that submission?

For the record, they do play games I call tag and hide & seek. Doing the B500, one runs after the other and tags the front dog. Then they switch directiions running till they tag again and so on. When they play hide & seek, one chases the other and the other stops short in another room till found and the chase is on again til (usually Daisy) finds a spot and waits till Duke comes around the corner and finds her. These games are so fun to watch. It's what I call play-play. The price of this enjoyment is that our lamps are now all unplugged b/c they have been knocked over. One is now broken. :eek: (I plan to buy all new furniture, when Daisy is older. Do you think next year would be OK?) :o

Also, Daisy doesn't always mind Duke taking her chewy's. Maybe she'll tolerate it some of the time and find something else. When she doesn't tolerate it, brawling game is on - again.

Thanks for all your input. This is the first time I've had more than one dog, young ones at that! :eek: Except I grew up with Pomeranian pairs. All they wanted were biscuits and a lap. Nothing like my two warriors. :)

[Quercus]

<<I'll let them be best I can but sometimes, I can't take it when the sounds escalate for too long.>>

Absolutely....and you can tell when things are escalating. Just trust your judgement...and then calmly step inbetween them.

I have been known to shout "knock it off" or even "just SHUT up!" I am not proud...but it has happened!

[tanza]

Hey, I have done many a "Knock it off" and "SHUT UP"... (or worse..ggg).... happens to the best of us...
Of course mine look at me with disgust... and then continue on with exactly what they were doing... :-)

[lvoss]

This is my first attempt at posting a link to a video, hopefully it works. This is Sophie and Rio playing yesterday.

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/lrvoss/?action=view&current=RioandSophiePlaying.flv

[lvoss]

While I was making the other movie, Nicky decided he would start a wrestling match so I decided to to make another movie.

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/lrvoss/?action=view&current=NickyandSophieJoinForces.flv

[Quercus]

Cool! yes, that looks like pretty typical play...it can get more rambunctious at times, and louder...but that is a good example...

and is that Sally Jesse on the TV, or Judge Judy ;)

[lvoss]

I think the movie from yesterday is Judge Judy and the movie today has NCIS. :D

[tanza]

Great Video Lisa..... and yes that is so typical of play.... and I love that Rally was at the other end of the bed... with that "I am so way above all that!"... attitude!!!!

[Duke]

This is my first attempt at posting a link to a video, hopefully it works. This is Sophie and Rio playing yesterday.

Thanks Lisa - These videos look typical of Duke & Daisy too. Except of course when there's real cause for concern - you know, the turn for the worse. I am attempting to upload a short video from my camera - so you can see my two going at it like yours. Haven't done it b4 either - so maybe it'll work. (don't know when I'll be done) :confused:

[Duke]

This is my first attempt at doing a video - Yesterday after work, as usual Duke & Daisy were doing their thing. At the end of the video - they must have hurt themselves locking teeth b/c they're licking nose & mouths.

This video is quiet & mild. Not the growly kind of fight.

http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/dukerspooker/?action=view&current=NipBrawlFirst.flv

[Quercus]

Very cool! So, that is the usual? Or is there more noise usually? That was all play.

So....do you have a digital video camera? Or is that a feature on your regular digi cam? I will have to do this....I could make a video of Querk screaming his head off for y'all.

[Basenji_Boy]

Looks so familar!:D Yep Senji play for sure. Good job on the Vid Jill!!!!:D :D :D

[Basenji_Boy]

:) Looks so familiar!:D Yep Senji play for sure:) . Good job on the Vid Jill!!!!:cool:

[Duke]

Very cool! So, that is the usual? Or is there more noise usually? That was all play.

So....do you have a digital video camera? Or is that a feature on your regular digi cam? I will have to do this....I could make a video of Querk screaming his head off for y'all.
This is the usual - almost all the time when they get out of the crates. Also, they almost always have to do it in my presence. Wherever I am - they follow. It will usually get heated once or twice a day. They're heated now - just took another short video - will publish it - for kicks.

I used my digital camera using the video setting. Downloaded it like the digital images and then uploaded it to Photobucket in the video index. I don't know how to edit it like Lisa did with the captions.

I figured that Duke, being the bigger and stronger of the two was playing too rough with Daisy. But if you say it's normal . . . just being senji.

[Duke]

:) Looks so familiar!:D Yep Senji play for sure:) . Good job on the Vid Jill!!!!:cool:
Thanks! I'll upload another video - This one is where they're being vocal and very noisy.

[Duke]

OK - This gets nasty. 1st one here is when my DH just came home, which started D&D's spat. (Also, please excuse my DH's reference to what's he's gotta do . . .) Hahaa - It's about the spat.
http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/dukerspooker/?action=view&current=HeatedRex.flv

This next one is close to the same spat - I don't know what's eating my kids today - They've been on & off with this more than usual. They'll work it out, right?
http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/dukerspooker/?action=view&current=ae35aa1e.flv

[Quercus]

The first one looks like a tizzy over who is going to get to greet daddy first and longest. It is definitely not play...but it isn't really fighting either. It looks like Duke is complaining that Daisy is jumping around while he wants to greet.

The second one kinda looks like Duke doesn't want to play with Daisy...she gets the message and goes to find something else to play with.

To me it looks like they are definitely sorting stuff out....that is fine, it sounds like complaining.

[Duke]

Thanks for your take on these two. I didn't know they have complaints. You read them so well. They're both grumpy today. It occurred to me they need to get off the dock here at home. We will get them out and visit family tomorrow afternoon and thru the weekend. "A tired Basenji is a happy Basenji". (They're still doing it under my chair!) It's about bed time for everyone. ;)

[Basenji_Boy]

If you notice on the second vid Daisy's tail wags a little. I agree with Andrea, neither are fights in my opinion, just senji talk. It's when those exchanges go on longer than that and hackles are up you might need to intervene.

Not sorry you added that second B are you Jill?

They look like they're blending nicely!

[Duke]

If you notice on the second vid Daisy's tail wags a little. I agree with Andrea, neither are fights in my opinion, just senji talk. It's when those exchanges go on longer than that and hackles are up you might need to intervene.

Not sorry you added that second B are you Jill?

They look like they're blending nicely!

Right, not sorry. More like adjusting to two. Seems they've been having the so-called senji talk with complaints and very noisy play more often lately. So, I was concerned b/c honestly I thought they were fighting. So I should look for hackles before deciding to break them up - or unless the noise goes on for too long.

Thanks for helping me figure this out. Certainly I trust your opinions and advice having experience with multiples. I am so glad we have Daisy - She's the sweetest little cuddler and she's learning fast. She can do no wrong when she gives me the look . . . you know it. ;)

[Basenji_Boy]

So I should look for hackles before deciding to break them up - or unless the noise goes on for too long.

I have this type of thing all the time with the larger, younger group. If I hear the heated 'Senji speak" go on for too long I holler for them to zip it.....before it escalates and let them know I'm not happy with the bickering. Hackles are a good sign someone is aggitated and you need to pay attention, but I wouldn't say it means they are going to fight.

Our resident fight cat, when she starts staring and licking her lips.......I step in.;)

I'm so happy for you that this is working out, it's really fun to watch them isn't it?

[Quercus]

I would guess that Daisy's "puppy liscense" is about to expire. Usually between 4 and 5 months, the adult dogs don't accept inappropriate behavior anymore. And they get on the puppies to "grow up and knock it off"

We are going thru that here too. Our problem is that Ivy is very sensitive to anyone having more fun than she is...she a very low tolerance for silliness....so you can imagine how she feels about uppity young puppies! So she reprimands Ariel...and Ariel says 'oh, yeah...scr*w you!!!' And then it sounds like world war III is about to break out..until I soothe all feelings. I would video tape it if I could, so you could see what it looks like just before a real fight...but then I couldn't intervene ;)

The other adults just complain to her, and about her...but don't really take it to defcon four...Ivy, OTOH...well...she is truly an alpha bitch....in every bad sense of the world.

Sometimes Duke might need a break from Daisy...if you can separate them briefly, it might help.

[lvoss]

Sophie is the only one of ours that is a morning dog. She also loves to greet everyone, every morning when she wakes up. Her absolutely most favorite dog to greet in the morning is the old grump who always wants 5 more minutes of sleep. Every morning when Sophie wakes up she comes waggling over to me, then to Sam and then we hear "eennnhh" "eeennhh" as she tries to greet Nicky, she flops over and shows her belly wagging away all the while he is making this "eeennnhh" sound. No matter how many times he disciplines her for this, every morning she goes through the whole thing again.

[barkless513]

I not only have a 16 month old basenji, I have a senior rat terrier, he just turned 11. I have a problem with Tobias, he is always slapping Jazz(my senior) in the face. Now Jazz is very good, he tolerates it well. But afer 5 or 6 slaps, he snaps, with a bite to Tobias' cheeks. No harm is ever done, but I worry about what would happen if I did not intervene. I know he just wants to play, however, Jazz is rarely in the mood. Tobias is VERY persistant. Is there a way to encourage playtime so both can get along?

[Duke]

Jazz is rarely in the mood. Tobias is VERY persistant. Is there a way to encourage playtime so both can get along?
This seems to be how my two get into spats. As advised, they will work it out and too much intervention can lead to unresolved issues that may get worse. I am taking the advice to only intervene when the noise goes on too long or when I perceive a WWIII eruption. It seems our interpretation of playtime is different than the canine way.

Friday and Saturday, we've enjoyed the beautiful warm weather here in MI outside. I've taken my two to my nephew's fenced in yard where they are able to run and explore with his dog, Homer. They've gotten lots of exercise and seem to have released alot of energy. Today, we'll go for a long walk in the park, hopefully twice. Remember, "A tired Basenji is a good Basenji".

[Duke]

So....do you have a digital video camera? Or is that a feature on your regular digi cam? I will have to do this....I could make a video of Querk screaming his head off for y'all.
Would love to see and hear Querk. It would be fun . . . to hear Basenji sounds. Their vocals are so different, it's cool.

[tanza]

Hackles up are normal for a Basenji, I have never seen it make a difference, means nothing about a serious fight or not, IMO... usually it is the noise, or lack of it... My Kristii yells all the time at my boy...ggg.... and she always has her hackle up... and she is all noise, no action....

This is typical Basenji actions... when you have more then one... I have always told people get ready for the noise.. that you never had before.... sounds like they are going to kill each other... but they are not....

One thing that I can say is that if you ever see that "glazed" look in one or the other to where they are totally fixed on the other one.. that to me is a sure sign that something nasty is going to happen...

[Basenji_Boy]

Hackles up are normal for a Basenji, I have never seen it make a difference, means nothing about a serious fight or not, IMO... usually it is the noise, or lack of it... My Kristii yells all the time at my boy...ggg.... and she always has her hackle up... and she is all noise, no action....

When the hackles are up on mine, something has them aggitated. Doesn't mean....fight.......aggitated.;)

[Quercus]

When the hackles are up on mine, something has them aggitated. Doesn't mean....fight.......aggitated.;)

yeah...between girls at our house, it does mean something if it continues for any length of time. Sometimes it just means, you are sniffing me, should I be concerned?...but if the girls are circling, sniffing, and ridgie, there could be trouble.

[Basenji_Boy]

yeah...between girls at our house, it does mean something if it continues for any length of time. Sometimes it just means, you are sniffing me, should I be concerned?...but if the girls are circling, sniffing, and ridgie, there could be trouble.

Amen to that!:D :D ridgie I love that! :D :D

[barkless513]

Tobias is always ridgie. When at play that is. I have seen him aggressive only toward humans, strangers, and only when he is safe inside the house, and the humans are outside. LOL I know he would run if he were outside with the stranger. Or at least I think he would, as he does not like confrontation, or srangers. Question, it seems that hackles up is happy time for Tobias, tail wagging, mouth open, barooing all the way. How do we really know if these guys are angry?

[Quercus]

I think the best word for ridginess is "arousal" some dogs get very aroused during play...some don't. Most dogs get aroused during an aggressive display. But before a real fight a dog is always aroused, guaranteed.

[Duke]

As is with children - vying for mommy-daddy attention is pretty normal. Duke and Daisy do that. Duke used to have all the attention from everyone. Good morning kisses & rubs - everything for him. Now we have Daisy - and she needs her fair share of attention. When I choose Daisy first, I see poor Duke looking slighted watching and waiting for his turn - I kind of feel bad for him. They try to be the first by shoving themselves in front. I switch off who's first. I don't think this is a big problem - but does it matter who is chosen first to give attention?

[Quercus]

Some trainers/behaviorists will say yes....I am not so sure. I try to do tandem petting and greeting when dogs are sorting out their issues. If you have to choose one, I would definitely give Duke the attention first.

[tanza]

The dog that was there first, IMO should be greeted first... and to keep it as a routine.... as with most animals, most things become habit....

[Quercus]

The dog that was there first, IMO should be greeted first... and to keep it as a routine.... as with most animals, most things become habit....

you mean the dog that lived there first, right? Or do you mean the dog that gets to you first?

[Duke]

They both get there first, then the shoving begins. They can't be kissed and hugged at the same time, so I'll give Duke his first b/c he's the older and wiser. Makes sense - Thanks for your replies.

[Quercus]

They both get there first, then the shoving begins. They can't be kissed and hugged at the same time, so I'll give Duke his first b/c he's the older and wiser. Makes sense - Thanks for your replies.

This is what we do with Querk. And we often have as many as four hopping around at the same time :rolleyes:

But he is VERY vocal when the other dogs get in the way of his greeting. I am kind of envisioning that is what is going on with Duke.

Another example of status being fluid...all the dogs defer to his complaining during greeting...but all the girls can take things away from him, and guard him away from their sleepy space. And they all greet him in a subordinate way...so it is really, really hard to guess who is in charge of what....kinda like the federal government ;)

[nomrbddgs]

Funnily enough, my 3 B's will crowd me with the Boxenji constantly getting in the way. I will always cuddle Shadow first, then Sugar, then Zina, and then Dimisi-in the order I got them. The old girl Calli waits on the chair for me to come and see her and get her cuddles and kisses-I guess she doesn't want to get into the fray at the door and she knows if she waits she gets more attention!

[tanza]

you mean the dog that lived there first, right? Or do you mean the dog that gets to you first?

Yes, the dog that lived there first