Morning Tantrum in Crate

[LovingLola]

My husband and I are new to this forum and new basenji owners. Lola is 15 months old and we've had her for only a week. We got her from a breeder who got her back when her previous family could no longer look after her. So far, Lola's been sweet and mostly well behaved. We've successfully fallen completely in love.

The biggest issue right now is the little tantrums she throws each morning. We crate her for feeding, small blocks of time when we leave the house and at night. She was crate trained by her previous owners and usually goes in with little to no whining.

It's the mornings that are torture! We put her to bed at 10:30-11:30pm. She gets up after 6-7 hours of sleep, which is not enough sleep for me. Around 5 or 6 am she starts whining, screaming, circling and pawing at the door. Her tantrums are really loud and break my heart. Eventually, I'll get out of bed, she'll get quiet and I let her out. I think we should be waiting for her to get quiet on her own, without us having to get out of bed, but I don't know how long to wait. Plus, this morning, for the first time, she peed in her crate. I don't know if she's telling us she has to pee or just trying to trying get free of the crate. We take her out before bed, although she doesn't always use the opportunity to go potty. She always seems plenty tired and often gets in the crate on her own. If she could just sleep a little longer...

We would appreciate any suggestions or thoughts.

[tanza]

What I would do is if she starts whining at 5 or 6 is get up, put her out and then right back in the crate... that way you know for sure that she doesn't have to go potty.... I would guess it is a little of both, she wants out cause it is morning... and she has to pee... and especially if she has not gone before bed time. Do you have any idea if that is when they got her up in the previous home? If so, she is just doing what was the routine before...

[Quercus]

Yeah, I agree with Pat...she probably really has to go when she wakes up. I would either put her back in her crate, or let her sleep in the bed for the last hour or two.

[LovingLola]

Yeah, I think you're both right that she has to pee. That reminds me that one morning, after I took her out, we fell asleep on the couch together. That would support the having to pee theory. I don't know what her old schedule was like.

I'm worried that if I let her out and then go back to bed, she'll get used to that. I'm don't want to have to get up early, get dressed and take her out every morning. What do you think? I guess I could do it a couple times to test the theory. If that's it, we could start taking her water away a little earlier the evening before.

I would love to let her sleep in the bed, but our breeder thinks it really important to crate her at night. I could just leave the crate door open and she would probably go back in on her own.

[lvoss]

My 5 month old puppy needs to go out at about 6-7am. She will go back to sleep after she has been out to potty but she is just too young to hold it longer than that. As for the crate training, if you are crating all night and then just let her in the bed after the early potty break, she is still being crate trained.

[LovingLola]

Ivoss, I like your answer, because I would love to let her sleep with us a little in the morning :) . Thanks for the reassurance. I'll give it a try.

[Quercus]

Who is your breeder?

I agree that it is good to have a dog tolerate sleeping in a crate at night. But I don't think there is any reason that a dog MUST sleep in a crate, unless there are some other issues going on like resource guarding, etc.

You are still kind of getting to know Lola, so it is nice that your breeder is giving you some tips....but in the end, you will just find what feels comfortable for your family.

[LovingLola]

So far, I don't think there are any issues like resource guarding going on. She's very affectionate and has never snapped or growled at us. In fact she's very well behaved aside from the early morning screaming.

The breeder's feelings on this are coming to me from my husband, so I may have misinterpreted the whole must be crated thing. We're also still within a 30 day trial period, so it may be an issue of wanting Lola to stay well trained in case a new family has to be found.

Yeah, we'll have to figure some things out over time. My husband said the same thing.

[Quercus]

<<The breeder's feelings on this are coming to me from my husband, so I may have misinterpreted the whole must be crated thing. We're also still within a 30 day trial period, so it may be an issue of wanting Lola to stay well trained in case a new family has to be found.>>

Well, that absolutely makes sense. If it doesn't work out for Lola in your home, you definitely wouldn't want to make it difficult for the breeder or the next family to have her settle into a new routine.

Sounds like she is going to work out though :)

[LovingLola]

Ooops, forgot to answer your question about what breeder we used. We got Lola from Taji Basenjis (Katie Campbell), here in WA. She's been really great and I know she has Lola's best interests at heart. I have NO intention of giving her up, but Katie probably wants to make sure she can more easily find a new home. Especially since this is already her second home and I said I have allergies. I've had zero problems with allergies, by the way. (Yeay!)

[Quercus]

GREAT! Katie is the breeder of two of our dogs as well. Blondie and Bella; you can see their pics in the photo albums. Bella is the one in my avatar :)

[tanza]

Having them sleep in a crate till morning (regardless if it is their morning or yours) is crate training... and honestly if they wake up after 6 or 7 hours, regardless if you withhold water, they will still need to pee most likely... Sounds to me like that might have been her regular wake up time...

I would say let her go pee and all go back to bed...ggg... that is what I always did.... that became their special time...

[Quercus]

<<I would say let her go pee and all go back to bed...ggg... that is what I always did.... that became their special time...>>

We have done that before too :) Two always sleep in the bed with us, but we have done a morning switch...before Ethan came along.....the little early riser that he is...I haven't gone back to bed in almost four years!

[tanza]

<<I would say let her go pee and all go back to bed...ggg... that is what I always did.... that became their special time...>>

We have done that before too :) Two always sleep in the bed with us, but we have done a morning switch...before Ethan came along.....the little early riser that he is...I haven't gone back to bed in almost four years!

LOL.... yes for some reason those human children just don't get the cuddle under the covers...like a Basenji... ggggg

[jys1011]

before Ethan came along.....the little early riser that he is...I haven't gone back to bed in almost four years!

Andrea that's a scary thought :eek: I'm already up at 6am all week & no going back to bed for us :eek: :eek: I can't imagine doing this even earlier..uuuughhh lol

BTW-mine usually have to go pee as soon as they wake up too!

[LovingLola]

Well, this morning was a complete turn around. At about 6am, Lola woke up. I could hear her, but she wasn't in tantrum mode yet. I took her outside where she peed right away. Then we went in and she curled up and slept in the bed with us for another hour. The rest of the morning was easier too, because she stayed on the bed for a while with my husband while I got ready for the day. It was a real treat. Thanks for the advice!

[tanza]

Super, glad that it worked out..... I am sure she loved her special treat of sleeping in bed with you guys!

[jys1011]

HA!! Bingo...we have a winner! :D I luv when we find things that just work for these little guys.

[LovingLola]

Boy, did she ever love it! We loved it too! An actual quiet morning and snuggling with Lola...what could be more perfect than that?

In fact, when we went to bed last night, she expected to sleep in the bed with us right away. She put up a little fuss when we crated her, but calmed down pretty quickly. I'm a little worried about her continuing to put up a fuss and always wanting to be on the bed, but I'm hoping she'll just get used to the drill.

I want to get some steps for her too, because the bed is a little high for her. I've heard that can be bad for the joints in the long run.

[tanza]

I wouldn't think that the bed is too high and being young (15 months), should never be a problem for a Basenji.... and I am sure she will get used to the drill.... she might always fuss a little just to see if "maybe" she can go to bed with you... but sounds to me like she understands...

[LovingLola]

Well, I just experienced a little Basenji owner embarrasment. I work at a church and live next door. My husband and I put Lola in her crate, went to lunch for 1 hour and returned. Apparently, she was making so much noise that a neighbor came over to the church because they thought she was being abused or something was dreadfully wrong. :confused: They could hear her in the church office too. The secratary at our office even let herself into the house to check on her. All she did was say her name to try and calm her down and then she left. Needless to say they weren't happy and I was totally embarassed. I then called my husband who said she peed in the crate.

Any thougts? I'm not sure why this was a big deal. It makes me wonder if we're not setting up our relationship as the alfa correctly and that obedience class is something we should start asap...even if it's mostly for our education. I mean, I don't think this is about having to pee. She did that earlier this morning and it seems she should be able to hold it longer.

[lvoss]

Do you usually crate her when you go out? Was this something different in her schedule? If she is not normally crated when you go out then it is something she will need to learn. Dogs do not generalize well so when something changes it is sometimes like training the behavior all over again. Also, I always potty my dogs before going into the crate. It is part of their routine. They go out to potty then come in and get their crate treat in their crates.

[LovingLola]

We've never left her home alone without crating her. My husband is iften home, so we haven't had to crate her much outside of nighttime. We should have taken her out right before. You're right that it's not part of a regular routine. Sometimes we do it for dinner, but I don't think we've ever done it for lunch. Do you give her a treat that she can take a while to eat, like a bone? We just gave her a little jerky treat for getting into the crate.

[tanza]

For sure she should have toys in her crate... and maybe a kong filled with goodies for her... and yes of course a walk before the crate would be in order... I would never just expect them to "hold it" because they went earlier in the morning...

[LovingLola]

I'm so glad I found these forums :D I'm embarassed at how little I know, but grateful that you are all so willing to share your wisdom. You know, this is my first dog ever. :o

All we have are fuzzy toys and we've been waiting for the previous owners to send her other toys. We should probably get her something more interactive or something to chew on. Any suggestions for good crate toys?

Kongs are new to me too. I'll have to get one of those and fill it with something fun. No peanut butter though...I'm seriously allergic to nuts.

[lvoss]

I have used various things but stuffed kongs or a stuffed sterilized bones are favorites. You can actually seal the ends with a little cream cheese and have the middle stuffed with their breakfast, lunch, or dinner so they are really just eating their regular meal with a couple of hidden surprises to make it interesting. It is like hidden treasure for them and mine will pull them out of their crates at the end of the day just to check to make sure they got every last bit of flavor out of them.

[Quercus]

I think she is just going thru an adjustment period. The most important part is to never let her out of her crate, or pay attention to her when she is screaming in her crate.

It is a good sign that she is fussing when you leave, it means that she is bonding with you, and doesn't want you to leave. Keep in mind that it probably wasn't her choice to leave her last family...and she may have some separation anxiety because she is wondering where they went. But no matter how heart wrenching that is, you have to be firm on the rules of no attention when fussing, and not baby her. She will get used to your routine soon.

Tell your co workers that all that noise is normal :) I feel your pain! Hang in there!

[LovingLola]

Thanks for the support. I think you're right about her having separation anxiety. Whenever my husband or I leave the house, the other is left with a panicky little girl.

I think we're going to have to be really strategic about when we crate her. I have a feeling that if she put up another fuss when my co-workers were there, they would be very unhappy. I should have warned them ahead of time. They were sort of left having to answer questions and they didn't know what to say. It was a surprise to them that this could happen.

I actually went and talked to the neighbors and they were really understanding. At first they thought a baby was being abused. They were just worried about Lola's safety.

[tanza]

Hmmm, many a Basenji owner has been accused to "beating" children when their Basenji is unhappy!!! So much for so many of these web sites that say they are quiet???... NOT

[dash]

lovinglola, I feel your pain. Dash did that at first when he was small. I agree with Andrea that she is adjusting. Please be patient. I think a routine of when she gets in the crate would help or even put her in there when you are home but only for a minute and let her out only when she calms down. But chew toys and something she can destroy will help her stay busy for a while. Good luck.

[Quercus]

Thanks for the support. I think you're right about her having separation anxiety. Whenever my husband or I leave the house, the other is left with a panicky little girl.

I think we're going to have to be really strategic about when we crate her. I have a feeling that if she put up another fuss when my co-workers were there, they would be very unhappy. I should have warned them ahead of time. They were sort of left having to answer questions and they didn't know what to say. It was a surprise to them that this could happen.

I actually went and talked to the neighbors and they were really understanding. At first they thought a baby was being abused. They were just worried about Lola's safety.


Did Katie say whether crating was an issue at Lola's former home? If so, you might need to retrain her to staying in a crate. But it sounds like she often stays in there quietly, right? Is there somewhere you can place her crate where it is less likely to be heard if she screams?

It usually best to come up with a crate routine for each time you leave. Make it sweet and simple. Chew treats (kongs, bones, stuffed with yummies) put in, dog goes in for a food reward, you say 'bye, be good' and walk out the door. The more stressed you get, and the more you fuss over her, the more her anxiety rises. Also, there is the DAP diffusers you could try. They diffuse some sort of dog calming pheremone. Lots of people have used them with quite a bit of success. Google it and you will find plenty of info.

I think the more strategic you get, the more stress it causes...just do what you need to do...give it a couple weeks, let your co-workers know it will get better...and see where you are then.

[jys1011]

LovingLola I have used the DAP diffusers and it has worked for both anxiety in the crate and also with anxious peeing in the crate.

For some reason my dogs started a delayed reaction to separation anxiety. I couldn't explain it..they were fine for 4 months & then it was madness. But the advice here is very helpful. Don't make a big fuss about putting her in OR taking her out.

I also think the DAP has helped quite a bit too. Topaz was having some consistent peeing & pooping :eek: in the crate for reasons I couldn't explain. Once I started using the DAP it's over & she's great. She goes in lays down & we say good bye.

[LovingLola]

I didn't talk to Katie about crate issues, but I think I will. Now that I think of it, she is quiet at night, but we haven't crated her much more than that.

I think the idea of starting small, sort of retraining her, is a good idea. We're going to start with small incriments of time, with toys and a kong. We're also going to do it at a better time, like Saturday at lunch, when fewer people are around to be bothered. Oh, and my husband noticed our bedroom window was open, so that was probably part of why everyone could hear her so well. Ooops.

I've never heard of DAP diffusers, but I will definitly give it a try. Anxiety does seem to be her biggest difficulty right now.

At least the mornings are much better. The whole letting her out to pee and then letting her sleep on the bed thing is working great.

[LovingLola]

I'm starting to wonder if Lola is testing our boundries in the morning and doesn't really have to pee. For the last couple weeks, she's been waking up early (between 4-6am) and before she starts putting up a fuss, we take her out to potty. Then she wanders back into the crate and sleeps for a couple more hours with the door open. We stopped letting her on the bed after she woke up, because it was making the evenings tougher. She wanted to get in the bed right away. (Of course when she looks at me with those longing eyes and paws at the bed, I just want to scoop her up with us and snuggle the bejeezus out of her :D )

Last night, for a couple reasons, we let her sleep all night in the crate with the door open. She sleep the longest ever, not having to go potty until I was actually ready to get up. So, I wonder if it's such a terrible thing to let her sleep with the door open. On one hand, I don't want to "ruin" her crate training. On the other hand, last night was the easiest night ever!

[tanza]

As they say, whatever works... but of course "if" she decides to just get up and "come" into bed by herself.. she can..... And really they do catch on to the morning snuggles.... without making a mess out of crate training...

[BillyK]

Also, what if she decides to go see what she can chew on while she waits for you to wake up and let her outside to pee.
Oh, there are so many reasons I can think of not to let her free at night, and my Jenny is a pretty good basenji when compared to the descriptions of "typical". Lola is obviously comfortable with the crate, and trying to figure out how to manipulate you ("shaped your behavior" in clicker training lingo) into not crating or leaving her.
I think she is just going thru an adjustment period. The most important part is to never let her out of her crate, or pay attention to her when she is screaming in her crate.

It is a good sign that she is fussing when you leave, it means that she is bonding with you, and doesn't want you to leave. Keep in mind that it probably wasn't her choice to leave her last family...and she may have some separation anxiety because she is wondering where they went. But no matter how heart wrenching that is, you have to be firm on the rules of no attention when fussing, and not baby her. She will get used to your routine soon.

Tell your co workers that all that noise is normal :) I feel your pain! Hang in there!
IF you break down and let her out while fussing, you will be reinforcing the fussing behavior. Also you will be strengthening the behavior, thus making it more difficult to extinguish or change. AND if you wait longer and longer (and while the fussing escalates) before breaking down and giving in, you WILL increase the intensity of the fussing.
Be strong, breathe deep, use earplugs if necessary, and RELAX. It helps to be cool and aloof about the situation.