Is Tyler Jealous?

[MaxBooBooBear]

Here is my situation.

Zoey (3 yrs old) and her father (6 yrs old) were dumped by a breeder at the So Cal Basenji Rescue when they were 1 and 4. The setup in So Cal is a kennel building. Zoey and Tyler stayed there for almost 2 years, and they were very close and according to Karen and Chuck—they never saw them even snark at each other over anything. They stayed in the same kennel, ate out of the same food bowel, and were let out into the same run together the whole time they were there. Tyler was the dominant one and looked out for Zoey. I’ve had them in my home now for over two months. Zoey ran from me at first and wouldn’t even let me pick her up. But when she started coming to me, Tyler would push her out of the way. I always treat Tyler as the leader (after myself). I greet him first when I get home, he gets his treats first, etc. But a couple of times now, Tyler has growled at Zoey—and I couldn’t figure out why. Zoey looks very hurt and confused when he does this. I don’t think he had done this in the past with her. Then she tries to sidle up to him and tap him on the nose and get him to play with her. The couple of times he’s done this is when I am sitting on my bed and Zoey comes in between him and me—not to get my attention, but she’ll just be sniffing around the nightstand or something like that. Am I a “resource” he is guarding? Any advice on what I should do so that this doesn’t continue happening or even escalate? He hasn’t bitten her, but he does growl very seriously. So far, I’ve just kind of backed off and let the two of them sort it out. I’ve read the advice about giving treats when the “unwanted” situation arises to demonstrate that good things will happen if they allow the “unwanted” situation (like when someone knocks at the door and your B goes whacko). Should I try holding Zoey and paying attention to her and give him treats while I’m doing this? This would be before any growling situation because I don’t want him to think I’m rewarding him for growling at her. Any suggestions would be appreciated. fyi—Tyler is also very bad on leash when other dogs on leash get near. I have to take him to the other side of the street and not let him get near the other dog. It is always the three of us (Zoey, Tyler, and me) when we go for walks.

[nomrbddgs]

It is probably a form of jealosy and dominance combined. I try to give all my dogs some individual 'me' time. You may want to try some individual time. Also, if one gets snarky-they get ignored from me. I won't let them fight over me.

[Quercus]

<<Am I a “resource” he is guarding?>>

My hunch would be yes. The easiest thing to do in this situation is get up and walk away without a word. Then Tyler learns guarding the resource doesn't work.

There is always an adjustment period when bringing in adult dogs. Tyler is probably testing out his ability to keep Zoey away from his most prized resource right now, you! Some dogs do this more than others, and some never actually follow thru, just a lot of noise. And the other dogs are like 'whatever'! But it is still startling and irriating....

I wouldn't feed him during this behavior, because it is not fear or anxiety based (per se). If you feed him, he is likely to think 'cool, that worked' and keep using it. The only time you would treat him in this situation, is if you saw him ABOUT to guard, you called him away, or told him to stop, and he did..then treat.

It is hard to define exactly...but for behaviors that are somewhat planned out in the dog's head..you only want to reward the behaviors you like. When you are dealing with a behavior that is all reaction, and no planning then it may help to treat to make a different association with the trigger.

And lastly, try not to impose human emotions on either dog (it is hard, because it is very human!). Zoe isn't likely to feel hurt when Tyler snarks at her. She is probably sending him what we call calming signals to say 'calm down, I don't want to fight' and it may look like she is sad.

And very lastly..I have also found that mine do better with each other when they do get some individual snuggle time.

[tanza]

Great advise Andrea.. I totally agree with you.... and remember your boy has not had a "human" to call his.. till now... this is all new to him and I am sure he is loving it and wants to be the center of attention...

[JazzysMom]

Question along the same lines:

When I hold Jazz on my lap {or am petting her when she's on the floor}, and Keoki even walks nearby, she gets growly with him. If he gets too close she snaps, and one day even leapt off my lap and chased him, growling and snapping the whole time.

When she does this, I tell her to "be nice" {our term for "stop being such a bitch"} and kind of give her a little 'neck pop' - don't know how else to say it, but along the lines of what I may do if I had her on leash.
Sometimes trying to stop her behavior makes her get louder and more growly.

I've always assumed that she is guarding "her" lap, or "her" person.
So my question is, what *should* I be doing? Just standing up and dumping her off and walking away? Should I dump her and pet Keoki? Or would that make it worse?

Advice?

[jys1011]

There is always an adjustment period when bringing in adult dogs.

I got two adult dogs as well and really it took almost 6 whole months before they got comfortable and settled into their new house & the new rules. I was told once it would take as little as 2 weeks. This is SO NOT the case. I feel like my dogs have really changed from when they first arrived.

Give it some time & always always always be consistent with your rules. It's easy to get caught up in the "new dog" high :D :D Make sure that you are sending the same messages all the time of what is & isn't allowed at your house.

[tanza]

Dump her off your lap and walk away.... and yes, I would say she is protecting what she deems as hers... "your lap"... enough times of getting dumped off the lap will show her that her behavior is not acceptable and gets exactly the response she doesn't want... to loose the lap.... but you also need to know that sometimes this is a game... My Kristii will be laying on the couch and my boy OJ will come near the couch and she will growl and snap at him..... he will continue to stare at her until she comes flying off the couch, OJ will then run, jump on the couch and lay down.. gggg... She will do the same if she is sitting with us too.... for them this has been going on for years and years..... so it is just big game....

[Duke]

Whenever Duke is on my lap getting attention, Daisy comes over and starts nipping Duke's legs/feet, wherever she can to make my attention with Duke end. It's frustrating for me b/c I want to be giving Duke his snuggle time, but he's forced off so he can retaliate with Daisy. He's not going to let her get away with nipping him. (I've tried to holding her back, but she finds another way to get him). Any advice how I should handle Daisy's intrusion? :confused:

On the other hand, Duke is a perfect gentledog when I give Daisy her lap time...he looks the other way.

These two little rascals!!!

[Quercus]

My advice is stand up abruptly, don't say a word, and walk away. Don't pet Keoki. Eventually she will connect that she snarks, you leave. Don't correct, it can make it worse because she will just learn not to make any noise, and just launch into attack.

[Quercus]

Whenever Duke is on my lap getting attention, Daisy comes over and starts nipping Duke's legs/feet, wherever she can to make my attention with Duke end. It's frustrating for me b/c I want to be giving Duke his snuggle time, but he's forced off so he can retaliate with Daisy. He's not going to let her get away with nipping him. (I've tried to holding her back, but she finds another way to get him). Any advice how I should handle Daisy's intrusion? :confused:

On the other hand, Duke is a perfect gentledog when I give Daisy her lap time...he looks the other way.

These two little rascals!!!

i would say, this will pass.... :)

[Duke]

i would say, this will pass.... :)
Oh - another phase of puppyhood - among other squabbling! geesh :rolleyes:

[tanza]

Again, some play this game their entire life, like my Kristii.... she will do this no matter where she is... Chair, Couch, Dog Bed, Lap...... She hisses, spits, snaps.... OJ just stares until she jumps off after him and then jumps up and lays down.... (if the couch was the object), Kristii will then just get back up and laid down next to him....ggggg

[JazzysMom]

My advice is stand up abruptly, don't say a word, and walk away. Don't pet Keoki. Eventually she will connect that she snarks, you leave. Don't correct, it can make it worse because she will just learn not to make any noise, and just launch into attack.


Thanks, and good point. Like I said, when we correct or try to make her stop, she gets louder and more determined.

I'm going to stop dumping her and see how that goes.

[MaxBooBooBear]

Thank you for all the wise words. I so appreciate this forum. When I got my first B over 16 years ago, the first few years were such a struggle a lot of times--even with good training classes--because I didn't have resources like this to go to for help. When Tyler acts up again, I will try leaving the room. Hopefully, he will get the idea that growling to keep Zoey away from me will only make me go away--and that's not what he wants.

[Mantis]

I would suggest that you dont address either one as the alpha. Give treats at the same time so you are not selecting who is alpha.

Basenjis always challenge each other for alpha in my experience. It is just a natural thing.

Caesar was added to our family as a puppy. Beta was the same age and added when she was a year and a half. They ate together, sat on top of each other and slept together.

The rescuers told me it takes about 6months for a rescue to adapt to the new home.

6months later, beta became food aggressive with treats, peeing in other rooms, and snarfy with Caesar while sleeping.

I talked with a trainer and he suggested keeping them seperate at night and feeding seperately so they have thier own space. It worked and they always played well together after that.

I have a large wire dog kennel that has a splitter in the middle. They used to be in the giant kennel together, now I have the splitter in. Not a peep and they always played well after I gave them their own space.

Caesar has definately displayed jealousy now that Cairo is in our home. When I see the jealousy I will take them on walks seperately giving them each attention.

Let us know how it goes!

[MaxBooBooBear]

I would suggest that you dont address either one as the alpha. Give treats at the same time so you are not selecting who is alpha.

Zoey has been very submissive towards Tyler and me. Tyler is submissive to me but quite dominant with Zoey. I treated Tyler as the leader so as not to give Zoey any ideas about challenging him. A vet I had years ago advised me to let my dogs sort out the ranking and then honor it (i.e., giving the leader treats first, etc.). I'm curious to hear what anyone else thinks about this? Do you agree that I shouldn't treat Tyler as the leader--or actually second in command after me? I am going to plan to give each more "alone time."

[tanza]

Zoey has been very submissive towards Tyler and me. Tyler is submissive to me but quite dominant with Zoey. I treated Tyler as the leader so as not to give Zoey any ideas about challenging him. A vet I had years ago advised me to let my dogs sort out the ranking and then honor it (i.e., giving the leader treats first, etc.). I'm curious to hear what anyone else thinks about this? Do you agree that I shouldn't treat Tyler as the leader--or actually second in command after me? I am going to plan to give each more "alone time."

I agree that Tyler should be treated as the leader (after you)... you should "honor" the ranking they have developed (as long as no one gets hurt)... And I agree that each need "alone time".. but that Tyler should learn that being dominate to Zoey doesn't mean that he get you all to himself...

[jys1011]

In my experience I don't try to figure out who's leader or who wants to be leader...I think Topaz is the leader among the two of them but outside she's ok to let him be leader :) just like a woman! ha! :D

But as for treating them differently...I simply use the who ever can work for it first gets the treat...sit/down/stay..with "find it" it's whoever can get to it first. Both dogs need to be sitting in their crates before I even approach with dinner dishes & then I set them down at the same time. BUT that just works for me in my house. It all depends on the household :)

[tanza]

In many cases there really is no leader... with my girls, Maggii and Mickii are pretty much equal and don't care one way or the other... so not only does it depend on the household but the temperament of the dog too... and yes, my girls let the "boy" "think" he is the leader...gggg NOT!

[Quercus]

<<But as for treating them differently...I simply use the who ever can work for it first gets the treat...sit/down/stay..with "find it" it's whoever can get to it first. Both dogs need to be sitting in their crates before I even approach with dinner dishes & then I set them down at the same time. BUT that just works for me in my house. It all depends on the household >>

That is how I do it too. I don't ever assume that I know enough about their status with each other, to make it effect how I deal with them. With our girls it is hard to tell with Ivy and Blondie who is higher in status....I think it is Ivy...but Blondie so doesn't care most of the time it doesn't seem to matter. Blondie has the high status position of sleeping in the bed...but Ivy doesn't seem to care. However with a the other girls, I am afraid to let Luna sleep in the bed if I don't let Bella, because I think it might make her think she has higher status because she sleeps with the humans. With Bella and Luna, Bella clearly calls all the shots...Luna has such an easy going temperament in every aspect, so far she has been okay with Bella being the leader.

As far as Querk, I think he is the unquestioned leader...but he is pretty laid back at all and almost never uses his status. If it comes down to it, he will usually reprimand the girls...but he really lets them walk all over him most of the time. All of the girls as pups, and even as adults after a separation about fall all over themselves greeting him..to me that is a pretty clear sign that they really respect him.

Pack dominance or status is complicated, and it isn't really agreed upon or totally understood by expert behaviorists. I try to just do what works for our dogs...sorry that probably doesn't help much.

[Quercus]

After reading my post, I realize that my assumptions about the dogs' status DOES effect how I manage them, because I mentioned the issue about sleeping in the bed. So, yes I do think about how the things I do MIGHT effect their relationships to each other...but I don't really know if they do....clear as mud?

In other words...I don't think that things like who goes thru the door first, and which dogs get fed first really matter that much...but I think that access to humans (especially in favored places, like sleeping places), or extended disruptions in the pack (new baby, dog leaves for show weekend) can effect their relationships.

[Basenji_Boy]

In other words...I don't think that things like who goes thru the door first, and which dogs get fed first really matter that much...

When we just had four, Penny, Max, Cleo and Raven, the wife was letting them all out to go like she would every morning. Raven ran ahead of Cleo to the door , Cleo didn't like it and they went at it. Cleo did some serious damage to Raven and Gail. Whether something had been brewing prior or Cleo is just evil I don't know, but trust me we changed how we let them all out. We eventually gave up on keeping Raven and Cleo together at all.

Now we let Max and Cleo out together, she doesn't seem to care what he does.:rolleyes:

[nomrbddgs]

There are personality differences in each dog and one minute they seem to be fine and the next-WHAM! you're wondering what was going on!

[Quercus]

When we just had four, Penny, Max, Cleo and Raven, the wife was letting them all out to go like she would every morning. Raven ran ahead of Cleo to the door , Cleo didn't like it and they went at it. Cleo did some serious damage to Raven and Gail. Whether something had been brewing prior or Cleo is just evil I don't know, but trust me we changed how we let them all out. We eventually gave up on keeping Raven and Cleo together at all.

Now we let Max and Cleo out together, she doesn't seem to care what he does.:rolleyes:


Yeah...again, I should clarify. If two dogs are having status issues, then, yes something like one dog being disrespectful (or even just not being aware of the other dog) will trigger the other dog to reprimand, and that often starts a fight. If they aren't having status issues, then it doesn't seem to matter what happens. They can bump into each other, they can accidentally jump on the couch next to each other. They can hustle each other out the door. The tricky part is to try to figure out if they are having status issues BEFORE the next fight errupts. And I have found that it is very difficult, and takes a very wary eye to be able to see it before it comes to a head.

But, in my experience...guarding issues are not necessarily related to status issues. So a dog that launches off the couch to guard her human lap may not be trying to sort out status issues with the other dog. It sounds strange, I know...but that has been my experience.

[Basenji_Boy]

The tricky part is to try to figure out if they are having status issues BEFORE the next fight errupts. And I have found that it is very difficult, and takes a very wary eye to be able to see it before it comes to a head.



Amen to that Andrea! We're learning and just when I think we're on top of things they throw another curve at us.
Just based on what I've experienced with our's anyway, the AF's seem to be more concerned about status than the more domestic B's we have.

[Mantis]

this is a really interesting read. I always thought they are constantly challenging each other for top dog status.

i try to show no favoritism by feeding one first to not establish my opinion in the matter and remaining alpha mom.

in the pack of basenjis at the park, there is a definate alpha female and male of the group.

in the home when beta was around. caesar was constantly challenging her, biting her neck until she cried, but in the end, if she was pissed she would pull her ghetto side out and let him know who was in charge

cairo as a teen pup is trying to keep caesar off of my lap at night. he also is challenging caesar all the time. caesar does what beta used to do. when he is irritated he does one little move and cairo is on his back.

i am not talking about real fights though. but it seems like they are always challenging for that position.

[Quercus]

<<i am not talking about real fights though. but it seems like they are always challenging for that position>>

Some dogs may be always challenging...it does depend on the individual personalities. Just like some people, some dogs are constant status climbers ;) some won't rest until they are unquestionably on top in every situation. But most are happy with status quo....

Some of what you described could just be raucous play. Querk doesn't care about status...he doesn't have to worry about his. But he will drive the girls NUTS when he is in a play mood. He growls, snarls, bites their butts, and their necks, until they are furious...but it is all in play, at least on his part.

I would hazard a guess, that if you (general you) aren't having actual fights, you probably don't have status issues. Puppies always have to sort out where they stand in the group around six months to a year old.

[nomrbddgs]

Sugar is the one in my house with the issues-she doesn't like the other dogs playing together and she will get snarky with them. She's also very needy of individual attention. She wants to be top dog to the old girl that was there first. Doesn't happen when I'm around, she gets snarky off she goes for some time out. Depends on how tired she is as well as to how snarky she gets.

I don't think you'd want to see an actual fight, then you'd know you're in trouble-big time!