Cloven paws

[Barklessdog]

Are Basenjis the only AKC or domesticated dog with Cloven/joined Paw pads?

Cloven hoofs were the sign of the devil in the old country.

[JazzysMom]

I don't know what you're talking about. My Basenji's paws look just like my golden retriever's paws.

I don't get what you mean by "cloven/joined pads".
I can "handle" each pad independently of the others.

[tanza]

Are Basenjis the only AKC or domesticated dog with Cloven/joined Paw pads?

Cloven hoofs were the sign of the devil in the old country.

Huh? I don't think so?

[Barklessdog]

I have not seen joined paw pads on any other breed ?

See how the center toes pads are joined at the bottom.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Fenderbird/Basenjis/l_9c6ffd28c680eb4fbf15f2f61cb27563.jpg


here's how most paws are like on other dogs. Am I mistaken?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paw
Observe how the center pads on a regular dog are not joined. Am I mistaken or has not anyone else observed this?

Old Wives tales. My mother allways told me old wives tales like "cloven hooves were the sign of the devil" "Eye brows that grew together we also a sign of the devil", but thats for another disscussion.

[tanza]

I have seen many dogs with the center pad connected

[JazzysMom]

The center pads on my golden are joined, just a little farther down, and the hair covers the joining tissue {much like in that Wikipedia photo}.

Cloven hooves -- which horses, cows, sheep, goats {that's where your "devil" myth comes from -- are the hoof itself. On the dog it's just connective skin tissue, like the skin between your fingers. Hooves are not equivalent to paw pads.

[MaxBooBooBear]

Somewhere along the line, I remember hearing that the way the basenji paw is formed had something to do with it being a more primitive than domestic breed--don't remember where I heard that or if there's any credence to it. I also thought their paw shape was distinct to the B breed only.

[Barklessdog]

I remember reading or hearing how the basenji's, unique to their breed, attached pads actually made it closer in relation to the African jackal than the wolf (which has seperated pads)

Of coarse I can't find anywhere were this comparison is done/made, but will look further.

I know with todays DNA testing it could be easily proven or disproven the whole Jackal/basenji debate.

[MaxBooBooBear]

I remember reading or hearing how the basenji's, unique to their breed, attached pads actually made it closer in relation to the African jackyl than the wolf (which has seperated pads).

That's interesting....one of Max's nicknames during his youth was "the little jackyl" because he was such a pain sometimes! :)

[Duke]

I just checked both Duke & Daisy's paws. Seems the back pads are attached the way the picture looks, Daisy's are more evident. The front pads move a bit more independently - not much but are very close. Interesting, I never noticed that before. I used to have a yellow lab who's paws were webbed for swimming. The toes would spread out when I cleaned them. hmmm - Very interesting.

[Mantis]

I have heard basenjis referred to as "devil Dogs: LOL

[Barklessdog]

I know of places that will not take basenji's- ones I have personally run across-

Kennels - I would never use one with all that loud non stop barking, but we considered it once till we visited them - no way! Some do not want basenji's.

Vets- We had quite a few vets say they wont see basenji's

Dog trainers- we were told once in a dog training class, one problem from your basenji and he's out!


I have read about some dog parks were basenji's and other trouble breeds are not allowed.

[dash]

I know of places that will not take basenji's- ones I have personally run across-

Kennels - I would never use one with all that loud non stop barking, but we considered it once till we visited them - no way! Some do not want basenji's.

Vets- We had quite a few vets say they wont see basenji's

Dog trainers- we were told once in a dog training class, one problem from your basenji and he's out!


I have read about some dog parks were basenji's and other trouble breeds are not allowed.


That's crazy! most around here don't know what they are. A friend of mine who is a trainer just mentioned they are untrainable. I don't believe that. I just choose not to. There is a difference.

[Barklessdog]

Chicago is a big town and a lot of people own them here.

It's not that they are untrainable, it's just they respond to different training and the fact that they think nothing of biting if they see fit.

[tanza]

Chicago is a big town and a lot of people own them here.

It's not that they are untrainable, it's just they respond to different training and the fact that they think nothing of biting if they see fit.

Your kidding, aren't you? You expect them to just bite? I have never seen a Basenji "just" bite... unless of very poor temperament or socialization..... and that is a very, very small few

[Barklessdog]

No they don't bite out of the blue, but they can if you-

Try to trim their nails, neither likes it- our tri actually went after our vet's assistant, charged her. Another different assistant he just stands there like an angel while they trim his nails?

Stranger/child Picking him up

Stranger reaching around his head toward his back

Touch or grab his tail

Corner him

Our male is neutered and will not tolerate any other male. Was was in puppy classes and met lots of dogs and was fine until he turned about 1 1/2 and wham!

Also he has a thing about mauling/wrestling large dogs with long hair he meets on walks. He jumps on them and trys to wrestle them to the ground, pulling hair out of them. I'm not sure it's playing or what. Other owners are not amused.

They other night he met a older female yellow lab he knew as a puppy, they were great together. He like labs for some reason?


Yes 99% of the time, they are fine, but some things will set them off. Leave them alone and they will leave you alone, but people who are forced to deal with them don't look foward to it.

O.K. We get our dog and go to puppy training class. My wife goes and the very firsat class the trainer pulls my wife over and tells her, "I know basenjis and one bite or incident and he's out of the class". We were really mad! We complained about the trainer.


No they wont just bite someone, but they might in the right situation. Like it or not they have a bad reputation with vets, kennals & trainers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Fenderbird/Basenjis/surprise.jpg

[tanza]

Well really, any dog will do that.... not just Basenjis.... and I disagree with you on the "people don't look forward to dealing with them"..... if properly socialized..... yes of course there are some things and people that they take a dislike to... and so does ever other breed

[Barklessdog]

I disagree with you on the "people don't look forward to dealing with them"..... if properly socialized..... yes of course there are some things and people that they take a dislike to... and so does ever other breed

This was just my experience when we shopped for a new vet, looked to boarding and training. They ask what kind of dog you have then you get a negitive response. Yes they are not the only breed like that, but we did find out they have a bad reputation with many animal care/service places.

[barkless513]

Toby has joined paw pads too. I always thought it was a breed characteristic? I know Nashville is not as large of a city as Chicago, but everyone here loves Toby, they say "he is a what?" Cracks me up. Not a common breed here, as a matter of fact we don't have a breeder in Tennessee at all, as far as I know. Which is one reason I was intrested in breeding B's, I think alot of people would love to have one, but don't want a backyard breeder or puppy mill B.

[Barklessdog]

Which is one reason I was intrested in breeding B's, I think alot of people would love to have one


I think the best profile for a basenji owner is a previous cat owner, I think they would have a better shot at understanding the breed. Owners have to be totaly commited to the dog. It's not a dog for the laxed owner. Our breeder really got to know us and "trained us" in basenji's including classes.


I could never breed basenji's because I could never part with all those puppies.

[tanza]

I think the best profile for a basenji owner is a previous cat owner, I think they would have a better shot at understanding the breed. Owners have to be totaly commited to the dog. It's not a dog for the laxed owner. Our breeder really got to know us and "trained us" in basenji's including classes.


I could never breed basenji's because I could never part with all those puppies.

Oh trust me... right Lisa... as much as you love them.. by the time they are 10wks, you are ready for them to go to their new homes... and excited for their new owners.... :D

[barkless513]

Yeah, you're right about that. I am too soft hearted to let go of puppies. I'll tell you this...I would make sure the new parents of my pups were prepared, pre-screened to make sure they have never been charged with any animal neglect or abuse...I would want them to walk through fire to have one of my pups, then before you know it..I would have 10 B's...LOL It is alot to worry about, maybe someone on here would like to move to good ol' Tennessee...Tanza..Quercus...anyone??? LOL:D

[Barklessdog]

How could anyone part with one of these little angels?

Not my picture-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Fenderbird/Basenjis/CindyGriswolddagangJPG.jpg

[barkless513]

Wow...so cute. I had no idea that Chicago looked like that!! Beautiful pic.:D

[Barklessdog]

No there is no place in Chicago like this.

Not my picture.

[barkless513]

Oh...I was going to say you have a beautiful yard. LOL Still..love the pic. Thanks for sharing!

[lvoss]

Oh trust me... right Lisa... as much as you love them.. by the time they are 10wks, you are ready for them to go to their new homes... and excited for their new owners.... :D
Yep, by 10 weeks I am ready for them to go to their new homes. Then I get to do the proud grandma thing and get postcards and pictures.

[lvoss]

My vet likes my dogs. They are well socialized, easy to examine, and generally well behaved. My trainers like my dogs for mostly the same the reasons though part of why we go to class is to maintain the socialization and good behavior. I do not kennel my dogs, I have a house sitter and she also likes my dogs and comments on the same characteristics.

I have encountered people who have had bad experiences with the breed but I do not think it is the norm. Breeders have worked very hard to breed good temperaments. Responsible breeders also do alot of early socialization to give a good foundation to their puppies when they go to their new homes.

[Quercus]

My vet likes my dogs. They are well socialized, easy to examine, and generally well behaved. My trainers like my dogs for mostly the same the reasons though part of why we go to class is to maintain the socialization and good behavior. I do not kennel my dogs, I have a house sitter and she also likes my dogs and comments on the same characteristics.

I have encountered people who have had bad experiences with the breed but I do not think it is the norm. Breeders have worked very hard to breed good temperaments. Responsible breeders also do alot of early socialization to give a good foundation to their puppies when they go to their new homes.


Ditto to all of that, except, we do use a kennel. The woman who runs it loves our dogs! I always over prepare her, and warn her about Ivy, etc...and they are all perfect angels while they are there!

[Quercus]

How could anyone part with one of these little angels?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Fenderbird/Basenjis/CindyGriswolddagangJPG.jpg


Those look like Cindy Griswold's dogs :)

[tanza]

Those look like Cindy Griswold's dogs :)

I was just thinking the same thing... those are Cindy's dogs...

[tanza]

My vet likes my dogs. They are well socialized, easy to examine, and generally well behaved. My trainers like my dogs for mostly the same the reasons though part of why we go to class is to maintain the socialization and good behavior. I do not kennel my dogs, I have a house sitter and she also likes my dogs and comments on the same characteristics.

I have encountered people who have had bad experiences with the breed but I do not think it is the norm. Breeders have worked very hard to breed good temperaments. Responsible breeders also do alot of early socialization to give a good foundation to their puppies when they go to their new homes.

My Vet(s) and all the tech like my dogs... well except if they are there for a procedure that requires IV dip.... Kristii and Mickii "remove" them regardless of how they try to stop them... :D They usually have to have a tech sit with them the entire time... ;) I don't kennel mine either, I am lucky to have a house sitter that loves all Basenjis...

[JazzysMom]

My vet and staff all love my B's also. They've never so much as wiggled on the table, and always greet everyone who enters the room.

[Barklessdog]

Our tri male is great until the nail trimming, taking blood, getting shots, no problem, examining him is also no problem. It's always the nail trimming he hates. He's always hated it.

Our female on the other hand is a scaredy dog so EVERYTHING the vet does is full of drama. She struggles on the table, she never bites, but you have to wrestle her still. One time while getting a vacination shot she actually broke my wife's nose in two places by jerking her head around. She was still till the shot, then WHAM! Now my wife wont take them to the vet anymore, I have to.

On time while nail trimming, which our female also hates (she wont bite) actually freaked out so bad, that poop shot out of her bottom!

[Basenji_Boy]

Getting a group to sit for a picture like that is no easy task, impressive.

Great looking B's, it is a very cool picture and setting.

[Barklessdog]

Getting any basenji to sit still that is not sleeping is a task!

[tanza]

I got that picture from the Basenji Picture site I had in my Basenji Web Site Thread. A lot a really professional photo's there.

That is a problem with posting pictures on line, anyone can copy them. If you post a picture you have to accept a million people could be copying or using your picture.

True, of course you could have posted that it was not your picture....

[Barklessdog]

True -= fixed

[lvoss]

I got that picture from the Basenji Picture site I had in my Basenji Web Site Thread. A lot a really professional photo's there.

That is a problem with posting pictures on line, anyone can copy them. If you post a picture you have to accept a million people could be copying or using your picture.
Actually, though anyone could copy it, it does not make it any less a violation of copyright. If someone uses someone else's picture there are ways to correctly cite a source.

[JazzysMom]

Is everything published on the Internet {or in print, for that matter} protected by copyright laws? Or isn't there a need for an actual copyright?

NOT in any way saying that sources shouldn't be cited, due credit given.
Simply asking the question because I don't know the answer.

[lvoss]

Is everything published on the Internet {or in print, for that matter} protected by copyright laws? Or isn't there a need for an actual copyright?

NOT in any way saying that sources shouldn't be cited, due credit given.
Simply asking the question because I don't know the answer.

Everything published in a tangible form such as the internet is protected by copyright laws. As soon as it is put into tangible form it is copyright protected. I teach high school and spend a lot of time instructing on copyright and plagarism even though I am science teacher not an English teacher.

Here is a great website about copyright, http://www.whatiscopyright.org/

[lvoss]

Saying "Not My Picture" is not adequately citing the source of copyrighted material.

[JazzysMom]

Everything published in a tangible form such as the internet is protected by copyright laws. As soon as it is put into tangible form it is copyright protected.
Here is a great website about copyright, http://www.whatiscopyright.org/

Thanks. I thought things actually had to have a "copyright" date of some sort.

[Corinna]

*gently directing this back to the topic again* =)

Here's a pic of one of Taariq's paws (photoshopped). You can clearly see they're cloven, and all four paws look like that.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f86/corinna11864/tass_utskuren2.jpg

[Barklessdog]

The paw looks like a deer hoof.

[Mantis]

:eek: drinking my coffee now

[dash]

I think it would be unfortunate that we may miss out on photo's or quotes or whatever since they are on someone's web site. I didn't take it that Barklessdog was trying to "pass off" a picture of his/her own, just found one and wanted to share.

If I wanted to know where he/she got it I would just ask. I assume if you put something online you want people to see it. I will admit pics I have seen here I have sent to my boyfriend and said, YOu have got to see this one, what a gorgeous dog! or whatever. I would have never thought someone would get upset about it. We are all here because we love this dog- yours and everyone elses. He/She was not trying to make money off of it.

Barklessdog, I apologize for saying he/she. I didn't want to assume anything.

[Barklessdog]

No apologies needed. I'm the one who's apologizing.

I'm not really upset, but never thought about it.

[lvoss]

But I guess this does make everyone aware that posting any picture on the Internet is really offering it to the WORLD. You have to except that someone in China or Texas is copying all your pictures, using them how they like.

What I think it really does is make everyone who "borrows" material from the internet aware that the owners of those website are NOT making it available to the WORLD and that if the owner of the copyrighted material finds out they can demand it be removed and take legal action to seek damages. Putting it on a website does not make it free to the public and does not make it legal for people to use it without permission even if people do it. Just like just because someone thinks they can shoplift and not get caught does not make it legal.

I am not saying people should not share pictures they find that they think might be topical but why not direct people to the website where they are posted or at least cite your source? Is that really that hard?

[Barklessdog]

Can anyone find or show their dog that has the same paws?

[Duke]

We're veering way off topic - Removed my post and started another thread under Chit-Chat - called "Web Research & Information"

[Barklessdog]

All off related & pictures /info has been deleted

Sorry.

Must keep a clean ship!

[vstripe]

I wish Basenjis did not have a bad reputation. Thats a big reason why I have over socialized my dog threw the years I want him to be the best he can be and PROVE that basenji's can be great dogs! He is a real sweetheart the vet, groomer and our dog sitter all have an easy time with him. He has his quirks but he's such a good dog and the kids just love him. Sometimes my boyfriend will take him and just sit in front of the supermarket across the street and EVERYBODY will stop and pet him children, adults, people in wheelchairs the elderly (I think he likes the attention more than the dog lol) I love when people say "is he always this calm" "are they all this well behaved" "are you sure he is a basenji" it makes me so proud of him. :-)
My boys foot pads are pink with spots, very cute.

[Corinna]

The paw looks like a deer hoof.

But it's me paw, weally.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f86/corinna11864/IMGP1773.jpg

Hoof hug from Taariq

:)

[Duke]

How's this? Not so deer hoofy, but connected.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/dukerspooker/LaurensGradParty.jpg

[Corinna]

They're indeed connected, Jill. I wonder if the paws' look depends on what bloodlines they come from?

[MaxBooBooBear]

All my Bs (3) have had the cloven paws. Max was from a different line than Tyler and Zoey. Tyler and Zoey are father/daughter. My german shepherd mix did not have this cloven paw. When I had to have Max put to sleep last year, I had a stepping stone made with the imprint of his paw in it--and you can clearly see it was cloven. I was so happy I had that done--it is a wonderful keepsake. I also have his ashes in a beautiful wood box (urn) that has two photos of him laser engraved on it. It turned out just beautifully.

[ChristyRutherford]

I have read about some dog parks were basenji's and other trouble breeds are not allowed.
Not to doubt you, but I have never heard this or heard of the basenji being a "trouble breed" like chows, pits, or agressive dogs (I like both chows and pits:) nothing against them) I have never heard them lumped into the same category. Although I heard that years and years ago that some lines were tempermental.
In fact, most people dont even know what a basenji is, or only think the dog looks familiar and then say "oh yeah" when you say it is a B.

However, Bs are trouble in their own way:p

[vstripe]

Yes it is strange. Although it might be true in your area, its to bad :-(
I have met about 10 different Basenji's at the dog parks around here and only one out of ten would nip at the other dogs. (My boyfriend goes more often and has met 19 B's!) His name was mongo "from the congo" but now that he's been neutured he;s really good and had calmed down at the dog park.

[Duke]

They're indeed connected, Jill. I wonder if the paws' look depends on what bloodlines they come from?
Probably. Daisy is a mix, 50% B and best guess 50% beagle. :D But it's a "cloven paw". Never thought to look until it was brought to mind here.

but I have never heard this or heard of the basenji being a "trouble breed" like chows, pits, or agressive dogs
I had a chow mix and had trouble finding a groomer for him. I had to convince them his mix was very docile, which he was. His fur was like the chow's and he desparately needed maintenance. :eek: We drove miles to the same groomer for years.

[Barklessdog]

After going off topic many times (it should be owners are like their dogs!)

In the beginning of the thread several people stated their other breed dogs had the same paws, could you post pictures of them?

I'm going to stick to my paw theory till some one shows me another breed with the same paws. Looking at the other basenji pictures only re-enforces what I had been told or read.

Show me I'm wrong that basenji paws are unique. Show me those paws that are the same as a basenji's.

Also do all dogs paws smell like Frito's, like the basenji's? (oops going off topic again!)

[WBL]

One of my good friends has a Thia Ridgeback and he has the "cloven" paw. I can try and get a pic of it for you. I wonder if it is more common in the newer "domesticated" breed. As the Thai Ridgebacks are newer breed to people outside Thailand. And like the Basenji are still today can be found as a sense a wild dog in the country.

[ChristyRutherford]

As the Thai Ridgebacks are newer breed to people outside Thailand. And like the Basenji are still today can be found as a sense a wild dog in the country.

I didnt know there was a "Thai" dog. Cool, I just looked them up on the internet.
I went to thailand last year and was amazed at the dogs that roamed there. They all had a basenji quality. I think it was the ears and the mouth. I didnt take many pictures of them because the ones I saw were very thin and "wild" some of them were hurt and none of them could be pet. It was very sad. They were more like squirrels there, not a pet. (not all of them, but the street dogs were).
It made me very sad and I had to do alot of mental blocking when I would see them, they all looked like a close relative of my Squiggy.
I read about them before I went and the guides warned us, but it was still shocking to see a dog not as someones pet.
Sorry off track, Squiggys back feet paws are joined but not the front (but I will double check)

[WBL]

From what little I know about Thai dogs (all dogs there as a whole) is they are kinda owned, meaning a lot do have family, but they more sustain themselves by hunting thier own food and are not fed by "thier" humans. They pretty much come and go as they please, wander home at night, etc

[ChristyRutherford]

From what little I know about Thai dogs (all dogs there as a whole) is they are kinda owned, meaning a lot do have family, but they more sustain themselves by hunting thier own food and are not fed by "thier" humans. They pretty much come and go as they please, wander home at night, etc

Most of the ones I saw couldnt have been. They were very thin, wild acting, and many were very wounded, some with very bad open infections, most with mange, there are a few that stick out in my mind, but I wont go into detail. I still get sick at thinking about some of them.

The temple dogs were better, the monks somewhat took care of them. and a few of the guest houses we stayed at the families had pets and they were like they are here. Some of the market homes had pets and they were taken care of.
But to see the wild ones was just sad.

But it was very horrible conditions.

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

Here is Jacks Front Paw
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5815/jack020pg0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And back Paw
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8472/jack021gt7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Im not so sure that he has "cloven" paws...maybe he is just weird...lol

[Sunny]

Sandies pads are normal... i had read a article about the pads being that of a jackle quite some time ago... now i see not even all basenji's have this unique pad...
Had to comment on the feet smelling like frito's.. this i had to laugh about, since i complain about sandies feet stinking like that also... i wash them and in no time the smell is back...
also i was wondering i notice most "B's" toenails are white... sandies is both white and black, but since shes a mix i figure its because of that...
sorry gettin off subject of pads...
Is funny how sandie looks like a B.. acts like a B.. makes the noises of B's
stinky feet evidently like b's... Basenji must have been the domainate breed in her situation...too bad she didnt retain the small statue of the basenji... i guess she got the size from her dad... grrrrrrrr... If only i knew what he was

[JazzysMom]

Hmmmm, Jazz and Keoki's feet don't stink...and certainly don't smell like Fritos. LOL . . . they just smell like the dirt and dust in the yard.

Why WOULD they stink?

Neither of my dogs have any peculiar smell about them, except when Keoki gets his veggies, LOL.

[Quercus]

My dogs all have connected pads, and all smell like Fritos!

[vstripe]

My boy has cloven pads too, always thought it was weird, interesting to see it might be a B thing. His feet never smell bad just "earthy" and yes sometimes like Fritos. I always say he smells like corn and Fritos main ingredient is corn! <Hey come to think of it B's are not supposed to smell "bad" at all right?
Do we know why only some basenji's have the cloven pads and others not?

[Quercus]

I would guess it is either a more "primitive" thing, or else a "closely related genetic thing" (domestic stock basenjis are all down from less than 14 original dogs)....It would be interesting to know if Basenjis imported from Africa have the connected toe pad thing.