Newspaper Ad [Archive] - Basenji Forums - Your Online Basenji Community

Ninabeana26

01-31-2008, 03:03 PM

So here is the newspaper Ad my coworker saw in the paper & brought in for me:

Basenjis for sale. AKC
2 male, 2 female Barkless
Non-shedding. 8 wks old
$500 (321)xxx-xxxx

:eek: Now maybe it's just me but I am a bit worried that someone in the county in which I live is putting basenji puppies in the newspaper. The ad fell right above black lab puppies for sale & beagles. Does anyone who is familiar with breeders know of a breeder in Brevard county Florida who may advertise in this manner? :confused:

I have thought about calling the number & asking this person if maybe we could have our pups meet (since again she lives in the same county as me). On the other hand, I have considered calling this person & asking questions about the breed to kind of feel them out & see if they are a shady BYB breeder or something...

I guess it makes me hesitant when the ad says "non-shedding" because I can tell you right now that Dallas sheds & he's only 10 weeks old! & it says "barkless" because although they may not "bark" they are not mute by any means. I think their "screaming" is actually worse than barking! :p

Plus this is totally NOT a breed that someone should buy out of a newspaper ad without research & knowing what you're getting into. If a breeder is willing to sell through newspaper ads then that means they probably aren't really screening potential buyers right? Inputs anyone?

tanza

01-31-2008, 03:10 PM

IMO this would be a BYB... without question.. especially to put "non" shedding... and "non" barking and you are correct the "screaming" is the worst... I always tell people some of the noise they make will raise the hair on the back of your neck.... people like to think that non barking means mute... NOT...
And you are correct, responsible breeders do NOT advertise in the newspaper in 99% of the cases as they have a list of reseverations before breeding.
That said, there are breeders and basenji clubs that will put ads in the paper to go against BYB's to try and get people to call so that they can try and educate people.
This is where "emotional" purchases come into play... people read an ad, call, and go buy.... no screening, no contracts, no health testing, no breed education... result... typically the pup winds up in rescue.

Both lvoss and I have done that locally when we see ads, call and see what we can find out about them....

YodelDogs

01-31-2008, 04:18 PM

So here is the newspaper Ad my coworker saw in the paper & brought in for me:

Basenjis for sale. AKC
2 male, 2 female Barkless
Non-shedding. 8 wks old
$500 (321)xxx-xxxx

Very few ethical breeders will use the words "barkless" and "non-shedding" in adverstising because both terms are misleading. The price is also below what an ethical breeder charges.

If a breeder is willing to sell through newspaper ads then that means they probably aren't really screening potential buyers right? Inputs anyone?

There is nothing "wrong" about advertising in the newspaper. In fact, it can actually be a pretty good way to find homes. With local inquiries, the potential buyer can visit the breeder, meet their dogs, and see how the pups are raised. The breeder can visit the buyer and see where the pup will live. Both visits are perfect for a breeder to educate the buyer about life with a Basenji. That said, an ethical breeder would place their ad before the pups are born or soon thereafter. Screening potential homes takes time and effort and sorting through all of the "looky loos" and "impulse buyers" that are drawn to newspaper ads can be a full time proposition. You just can't do that properly when you wait until the pups are already 8 weeks.

Tayda_Lenny

01-31-2008, 04:58 PM

my friend just emailed me saying he saw a posting at work for:

$200 male no papers
$250 female no papers
$350 male w/ papers
$400 female w/ papers

:( sad... i'm sure its a BYB as well.

tanza

01-31-2008, 05:21 PM

Very few ethical breeders will use the words "barkless" and "non-shedding" in adverstising because both terms are misleading. The price is also below what an ethical breeder charges.

There is nothing "wrong" about advertising in the newspaper. In fact, it can actually be a pretty good way to find homes. With local inquiries, the potential buyer can visit the breeder, meet their dogs, and see how the pups are raised. The breeder can visit the buyer and see where the pup will live. Both visits are perfect for a breeder to educate the buyer about life with a Basenji. That said, an ethical breeder would place their ad before the pups are born or soon thereafter. Screening potential homes takes time and effort and sorting through all of the "looky loos" and "impulse buyers" that are drawn to newspaper ads can be a full time proposition. You just can't do that properly when you wait until the pups are already 8 weeks.

I would agree with you, but only in some parts of the country... and since most breeders have a reservation list before even breeding, newspaper ads are not needed.... of course there are those times when even responsible breeders might have an "opps".. litter

Ninabeana26

01-31-2008, 05:58 PM

Do you guys think I should call the number & investigate?

tanza

01-31-2008, 07:59 PM

If you want, but what good would it do? Unless you are curious?... or Unless you are comfortable you can talk to them about why they should be at least health testing and doing spay/neuter if they are going to breed.

But that is just my opinion

dmcarty

01-31-2008, 11:55 PM

re: advertising in the newspaper - we HAVE to be where people are looking - even if we don't have any puppies available - I do it from time to time - for a month or so - Sally Wuornos and I used to do it together for 6 weeks starting in May or June - I have found some good and not so good folks that way.

JazzysMom

02-01-2008, 12:49 AM

While I am always uncomfortable seeing dog ads in the paper, I must admit it would have been much easier for me to find a breeder had I seen an ad in a paper! If not for the Internet, I'd have been stuck -- and even then it took me a while to find breeders in the area. At first I thought there were none, then once I hit the right source I learned there are SEVERAL quality breeders in my area!

vstripe

02-01-2008, 06:19 AM

AKC dogs can be from byb's?<Is that common?

ChristyRutherford

02-01-2008, 11:00 AM

AKC dogs can be from byb's?<Is that common?

Sure can. Pet store/puppy mill pups are registered also.
All it takes to get registered (akc or other) is for both parents to be registered.
A good breeder will register her litter and adults but not all registered pups are from good breeders. **Dont worry, alot of people dont know this and are shocked when they learn that just because a pup is registered it does not mean it came from a good breeder or has good health, temperment or conformation.

There are also BYBs that "hang papers" which, in a nut shell, is registering pups to a different set of registered parents.

Im sure someone can explain this better and more indepth/professional than I can, its still pretty early in the am :)

TuckerVA

02-01-2008, 01:03 PM

I would imagine if someone were to be a shady dealer, like a BYB, then they could also fabricate papers. I know that my photoshop capabilities would allow me to do it if I were so inclined. Then it would be up to the purchaser to confirm the registration was legitimate (do their homework) prior to making a mistake like that. Then again, anyone who knows anything about B's wouldn't spend more than 10 minutes at a BYB before they knew what was going on and walked away.

TuckerVA

02-01-2008, 01:17 PM

Speaking of photoshop, if any of you have lots of spare time on your hands... I have a blog on my MySpace page that is absolutely hilarious and has some fancy photoshop forgeries. You have to see the blog before you go thinking I'm some kinda of criminal (albeit funloving)...

My myspace is http://www.myspace.com/stimpy3825. You'll have to be a MySpace member in order to access my profile details and the blog. Check the blog titled "Scam the Scammers: 419 Fraud - The African Scam" (I basically just mess with one of those African scammers). And if you just want to be entertained, check out "Russian Mail Order Brides" (same thing, I just mess with some Russian scammer). If you go to my page, the blogs are on the upper right side. Click on (view more) if you aren't savvy.

Enjoy!

tanza

02-01-2008, 02:50 PM

Sure can. Pet store/puppy mill pups are registered also.
All it takes to get registered (akc or other) is for both parents to be registered.
A good breeder will register her litter and adults but not all registered pups are from good breeders. **Dont worry, alot of people dont know this and are shocked when they learn that just because a pup is registered it does not mean it came from a good breeder or has good health, temperment or conformation.

There are also BYBs that "hang papers" which, in a nut shell, is registering pups to a different set of registered parents.

Im sure someone can explain this better and more indepth/professional than I can, its still pretty early in the am :)

Most BYB/PM's don't bother to fake AKC papers, they sell the pups with a "quote" registration that is from many of these registeries that were started when AKC put out the DNA parent requirement. Some of these are APA (American Pet Asso), NPA (National Pet Asso), CKC (continantial Kennel Club, NOT to be confused with Canadian Kennel Club) etc. Many PM got together and started these "crap" registries so that they could sell puppies with "papers". And since John Q Public is pretty dense about these things, easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
However, I am sure there are still some that are paper swapping, but much harder to do with DNA parent AKC requirements.

tanza

02-01-2008, 02:51 PM

And saw these today on a google alert I get about Basenjis...

http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/185485.html

http://www.tradeamericaonline.com/ad.php?id=14964

Ninabeana26

02-01-2008, 02:52 PM

:(

I decided I am going to call the ad today when I get home. I think I will just tell them that I have a basenji & am interested in meeting other fellow B owners in our area. I'll see what he/she says...

jys1011

02-01-2008, 03:13 PM

So if you do encounter a BYB...what CAN you do??? Is there an authority you can call??? What can we do stop this type of breeding??

JazzysMom

02-01-2008, 03:25 PM

So if you do encounter a BYB...what CAN you do??? Is there an authority you can call??? What can we do stop this type of breeding??

Probably not a lot. But if you have the resources you could place an ad in the paper that would go along side the 'for sale' ads that would warn against byb's and what key words to look for that may alert potential owners.

tanza

02-01-2008, 03:25 PM

So if you do encounter a BYB...what CAN you do??? Is there an authority you can call??? What can we do stop this type of breeding??

No, it is a free country..... what kind of authority? The only thing we can do is to try and educate the public on how to find a responsible breeder. Were to look, what to ask, what to expect.
It is why lvoss and I encourage everyone to have a web site and that includes pet owners... many site are free... many people these days search the web and you can be sure that BYB's are keeping theirs up to date since they breed every year and sell over the internet. Just look at the ads on puppyfind and nextdaypets to name a few. Responsibe breeders need to keep their site up to date... too.. that is another big key to education of the public. The Basenji Club of America will assist regional Basenji clubs with money support to place newspaper ads when BYB's are in "full bloom" to try and get people to call and learn about our breed before buying. Tell people why they should never buy from a pet store.... if you turn one person around from buying from a BYB.. then you have a success...

lvoss

02-01-2008, 03:37 PM

There are different things a person can do to help raise public awareness of what a BYB is and how to find a responsible breeder. One thing that the BCOA Outreach helps with is taking out competing ads where BYBs advertise and having a local person field calls and help direct potential puppy buyers to responsible breeders in their area. Another thing, since many people are turning to the internet to find their next pet, keeping a website that highlights responsible pet ownership with links to local clubs, the national club and good articles helps.

It is actually really important that those of you who are pet owners only are out there telling people why you want to get you next pet from a responsible breeder. So many people who contact breeders start their emails with "But I only want a pet." They always seem to sell short how important it is that "pet" be healthy, sound tempered, and well socialized so it can fulfill that role as a pet.

hdolbow

02-01-2008, 04:26 PM

tanza..

about those links you posted..

the first one (of the 3 basenjis) is also on puppyfind.com

i was browsing on there yesterday & saw them.
it had a kennel website too.. and they didnt have basenjis listed as dogs they breed

i think it might be that they bred the male with the two females and now dont want to breed them anymore & are selling them. if i find the link ill post it

hdolbow

02-01-2008, 04:31 PM

Ninabeana26

02-01-2008, 04:38 PM

http://www.puppyfind.com/view_listing/?list_id=qi0ao4f011&sid=f05e7df36c5fc031bdc4e18ead3f7c12&back=%2Ffor_sale%2F%3Fbreed_id%3D13%26country%3D%2 6state%3D%26page%3D12%26order_by%3Dbirth_date%26ba ck%3D%252Fbreed%252F%253Fbreed_id%253D13%2526back% 253D%25252Fbrowse%25252F%25253Fstr%25253Db%252526p age%25253D1

wow i take back my last post.. they are only 13 months.. maybe they were planning to breed, but saw how they were a lot of work and gave up?

I looked at their kennel website & they seem like a definite puppymill type place. I mean, how can you breed that many various dogs in one place?!? I wouldn't trust these people as far as I can throw them! I would NEVER buy a puppy from someone who breeds 15 different breeds!

JazzysMom

02-01-2008, 04:51 PM

I looked at their kennel website & they seem like a definite puppymill type place. I mean, how can you breed that many various dogs in one place?!? I wouldn't trust these people as far as I can throw them! I would NEVER buy a puppy from someone who breeds 15 different breeds!

Funny, I posted a review of the breeder {urging caution} and it posted my name as Heather. WTH???? Oh well......

These people also do "designer dogs" and are willing to "trade" the Basenjis for small breeds.

Fishy, fishy, fishy.

hdolbow

02-01-2008, 04:53 PM

i didnt realize there was such a thing has "designer puppies" hahaha

they're dogs, not shoes or handbags.

hdolbow

02-01-2008, 04:54 PM

Funny, I posted a review of the breeder {urging caution} and it posted my name as Heather. WTH???? Oh well......

These people also do "designer dogs" and are willing to "trade" the Basenjis for small breeds.

Fishy, fishy, fishy.

haha probably bc i was logged in to that site when i sent the link.. haha

Ninabeana26

02-01-2008, 04:54 PM

These people also do "designer dogs" and are willing to "trade" the Basenjis for small breeds.

Fishy, fishy, fishy.

Yea I saw that too! Definitely fishy! I would hope people would not be stupid enough to buy from people like them...to see the signs & run the other way. Unfortunately they don't because otherwise these puppymills wouldn't be in business. So sad :(

tanza

02-01-2008, 05:01 PM

Yea I saw that too! Definitely fishy! I would hope people would not be stupid enough to buy from people like them...to see the signs & run the other way. Unfortunately they don't because otherwise these puppymills wouldn't be in business. So sad :(

People for sure buy from them... it is amazing how people with just pop onto a website and whip out the credit card for a living breathing animal.. with no sense of what they are doing...

Ninabeana26

02-01-2008, 05:04 PM

So I called the ad in the paper to see what the deal was. I spoke to the gentleman for about 10 minutes. He seemed nice but this is definitely a BYB situation. He actually lived only 5 minutes down the road from me...in a trailor park. Not that living in a trailor is a bad thing but I just don't see it as being a great place to breed dogs!

I asked him if his dogs were from champion bloodlines, had been properly tested, etc. He said the father was a champ but not the mother & said they were current on all shots/vaccines (not what I asked...). When I mentioned Fanconi he kind of hesitated but then said "oh...um...yea..." like he didn't even have a clue what I was talking about :eek:

Gosh I want to go see the puppies now! I'm worried for them that they will end up in the mall petstore near us if people don't start buying them. He said he still has all 4 & that they've been in the paper for 2 weeks now. Maybe Mark would let me get a second so she & Dallas could grow up together :p (Kidding of course)

ChristyRutherford

02-01-2008, 07:03 PM

Most BYB/PM's don't bother to fake AKC papers, they sell the pups with a "quote" registration that is from many of these registeries that were started when AKC put out the DNA parent requirement. Some of these are APA (American Pet Asso), NPA (National Pet Asso), CKC (continantial Kennel Club, NOT to be confused with Canadian Kennel Club) etc. Many PM got together and started these "crap" registries so that they could sell puppies with "papers". And since John Q Public is pretty dense about these things, easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
However, I am sure there are still some that are paper swapping, but much harder to do with DNA parent AKC requirements.
I didnt know that, about the DNA parent requirement.
Thanks for the info.
How does that work? is it actually a blood test you send in of the parents?

lvoss

02-01-2008, 07:30 PM

AKC only requires a DNA profile for Frequently Used sires which is defined on the AKC site, so many litters a year or over a total number in a lifetime. A DNA profile can be obtained by sending in a cheek swab, the cost is $40. If you prepay there is a $5 discount so it is $35.

I get DNA profiles on all of my dogs because it is one tool a responsible breeder can use to go beyond the registration just being a piece of paper. If the both parents are DNA profiled when you submit your cheek swab you can pay for a DNA pedigree that shows the profiles of all the dogs. AKC also runs periodic checks of all dogs with profiles to make sure they are consistent with the registered pedigree.

tanza

02-01-2008, 08:28 PM

As do I... (get the AKC DNA profile)... But the byb and pm's didn't want to spend the money for all the dogs they breed or have the chance at some point if the "match" papers .. that maybe what they were calling from one parent, was not really from that parent....

agilebasenji

02-01-2008, 11:04 PM

Nina-
Do NOT go see the puppies if you think you might get weak in the knees by looking at baby basenjis needing a home. I have no problem going to the humane society, thankfully I've never seen a basenji there, but DH is not allowed to go by himself. However, baby basenji puppies, well, I'm not sure I'd be the best one to go see them.

tanza

02-02-2008, 03:01 AM

So, I contact the person in the ad with 3 b's.... no DNA testing for Fanconi (and a response that it costs too much)... not AKC registered.. but CKC, not to be connected with the Kennel club in Canada..
No health testing at all.... they took these B's in trade... sigh... this is a pure for profit puppy mill operation if you ask me.. with a nice website to "lure" people in.....

Basenji_Boy

02-02-2008, 11:58 AM

lvoss

02-02-2008, 02:05 PM

Costs too much? Yikes!:eek:

Maybe someone looking into buying a Basenji will read this......good for You.;)

Fanconi testing is a must.
Absolutely! Every basenji owner deserves a healthy dog. For those reading this thread the Fanconi Marker Test was $60 per dog so keep that in mind when someone who is asking you to pay hundreds of dollars for a puppy claims the test is too expensive. The only reason it is too expensive is if you are trying to make money breeding.

Every basenji owner deserves a healthy dog. That means supporting breeders who do health testing because if a breeder is not testing then they do not know what the true health status of their dog is. With a genetic test, you can test just the parents and know their genes with non-genetic tests breeders need information on more than just the parents to use to get a good idea of what the genetics of their dog is most likely to breed.

The Basenji Club of America is a participant in CHIC, Canine Health Information Center, and has designated 4 health tests as what they consider the minimum recommended health testing. Those health tests are for Hips, Eyes, Thyroid, and Fanconi. All dogs that have had all 4 of those tests and the results are public, not necessarily passing, but viewable by any potential buyer will be on the OFA website with a CHIC designation. This program is still pretty new so right now there are only 49 basenjis that meet this requirement but many have at least 3 of the 4 tests done.

Here is a link to a CHIC dog so you can see what the designation looks like on the dog's page and links to dog's that have CHIC.

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1197609#animal

tanza

02-02-2008, 02:13 PM

And anyone that purchases a Basenji that is not DNA tested is just doing a "roll of the dice". There is NO excuse for anyone that bred a litter for the Fall of 2007 has to NOT have had the DNA testing done before breeding, none at all.. We have worked for years find a DNA marker for Fanconi and anyone that has had or knows someone that has or had a Fanconi affected Basenji can tell you what a horrible affliction this is... sure people will say that there is treatment... but that is all it is.. and 30 pills a day is no easy task nor is it fun... and not all Basenjis do well on the protocol.. some do, some don't.....

BasenjiDiva

02-02-2008, 02:26 PM

So I called the ad in the paper to see what the deal was. I spoke to the gentleman for about 10 minutes. He seemed nice but this is definitely a BYB situation. He actually lived only 5 minutes down the road from me...in a trailor park. Not that living in a trailor is a bad thing but I just don't see it as being a great place to breed dogs!

Well...This guy absolutely doesn't sound like a reputable breeder and he shouldn't be in the business.....but not because he lives in a trailer park. I know of a breeder who lives in the country with lots of room but doesn't appear to spend a nickle on testing and I know of one who lives in a trailer but breeds responsibly. And...actually, there can be some good perks to having puppies socialized in a trailer park.....lots of people and noises. So...if you talk to a breeder and the answers to your questions are what they should be and the puppies are of good quality and well-bred but the breeder happens to live in a trailer, I would just chuckle to myself and understand how he/she is prioritizing.

Again...I say that while recognizing that the BYB in the ad is NOT reputable and not what the basenji breed or any breed needs.

Pat

lvoss

02-02-2008, 02:29 PM

This article written by the owner of a dog lost at the age of 6 years to Fanconi Syndrome explains why it is so important to only buy dogs from breeders that have done the test prior to breeding.

http://eldoradobasenji.com/Images/tailsUp.pdf

tanza

02-02-2008, 02:36 PM

One comment about "CHIC" designation, they have to have clear tests to get the CHIC designation. In the case of eyes, while minor PPM, Iris to Iris, is acceptable for a CERF test, the rest is not (read about PPM http://www.basenji.org/?q=node/17)... and while PPM needs to be watched in our breed, it is not a deal breaker when thinking about breeding. Every breeder must make hard choices... and I know for myself that if I had a dog/bitch with PPM (I am not talking about excessive) but more than the Basenji Club of America had determined and received approval from CERF as acceptable, that would not be a reason I would not bred a bitch or use a male all things considered and the rest of the health tests are acceptable.

tanza

02-02-2008, 02:47 PM

Well I stand corrected and learned something new.... CHIC only means that you have tested and that you are/do make your results public.... Which is a good thing too....

lvoss

02-02-2008, 02:50 PM

It is not true that they have to have CLEAR tests. They must make any results public so a dog that does not have a CLEAR test can get a CHIC designation. Here is an example of a dog with a CHIC number that tested Probably Affected with the Fanconi test. The important thing about CHIC is that any dog with CHIC designation has all 4 of those tests: Hips, Eyes, Thyroid, and Fanconi public so anyone can check the results.

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1250042#animal

tanza

02-02-2008, 02:54 PM

Well I stand corrected and learned something new.... CHIC only means that you have tested and that you are/do make your results public.... Which is a good thing too....

But the bottom line is that you are testing and you are making public the results... there are many people that have done hips, but not made the results public with less then acceptable results.

lvoss

02-02-2008, 03:13 PM

That is exactly true, CHIC means the breeder did the 4 tests that BCOA considers recommended and that they have made all those results public so that breeders and buyers can make up their own minds. People can not make an informed decision without information and making all results public, good, bad, and ugly is the only way we as a community can strive to improve health in this breed.

YodelDogs

02-02-2008, 03:15 PM

I'm worried for them that they will end up in the mall petstore near us if people don't start buying them.

Large chain pet stores such as you would find in a mall obtain their puppies from brokers. The brokers obtain the pups from commercial breeders aka puppy mills. They do not buy pups from BYB's or unlicensed breeders.

He said he still has all 4 & that they've been in the paper for 2 weeks now.

This is good news. The older those pups get, the more expense and effort they are. He will have the cost of food and more vaccinations and wormings plus more and more time to clean up after them. Perhaps once he realizes that breeding is "more trouble than its worth", he will rethink breeding future litters.

Do NOT go see the puppies if you think you might get weak in the knees by looking at baby basenjis needing a home.

I totally agree with this comment. Resist temptation.

Ninabeana26

02-02-2008, 07:57 PM

I totally agree with this comment. Resist temptation.

Yea definitely not going to see them :) I probably would be too tempted & the last thing I need is another 9 week ol d pup running around the house, especially one who isn't coming from a reputable breeder!

Craigh

02-03-2008, 03:49 PM

The older those pups get, the more expense and effort they are. He will have the cost of food and more vaccinations and wormings plus more and more time to clean up after them. Perhaps once he realizes that breeding is "more trouble than its worth", he will rethink breeding future litters.

Unfortunately, there is a good chance that these dogs will wind up being dumped on the local shelter.

lvoss

02-03-2008, 04:01 PM

Though that is true, it is better to have one litter end up in a shelter then an endless supply of young adults hit the shelters as owners become overwhelmed with normal dog adolecence and have no support to deal with it. Rescue is overwhelmed by dogs that come from BYB's and they come in waves year after year at predictable ages as they hit certain lifestages.

ChristyRutherford

02-03-2008, 11:09 PM

hdolbow

02-04-2008, 12:31 AM

so what does that DNA sample show?

lvoss

02-04-2008, 01:11 AM

All that DNA sample shows is parentage.

Once the direct gene mutation is found for Fanconi Syndrome a dog that has two parents that have tested Clear by the direct test and have AKC DNA profiles can be certified clear by parentage if they also have a AKC DNA profile. Marker tests do not qualify for the OFA clear by parentage designation.

hdolbow

02-04-2008, 01:14 AM

gotcha.

when i got the forms for Mia to be registered i saw her sire had a DNA number.. and didnt know what it was for or meant.

lvoss

02-04-2008, 01:58 AM

If only the sire had a DNA profile number and not the dam then it most likely means that he is a Frequently Used Sire by AKC's definition and was required to be DNA profiled for his get to continue to be registered.

I voluntarily profile all my dogs and with my last litter I also DNA profiled all the puppies before they left my house.

tanza

02-04-2008, 02:27 AM