Pet Store Puppies - Problem

[Duke]

Have you ever wondered about what happens to the puppies who don't get adopted from a pet store? I just read the post from Andrea in another thread. I understand the issue of not purchasing from a pet store. If no one bought a puppy that was bred from puppy mills, they would not be able to sustain a lucrative business. Thus, fewer unhealthy puppies - which is good. But my heart pours when I see those cute, innocent little creatures in the windows. I became aware of the puppy mill business from television news magazine programs. It's so-so sad, for the only purpose in the dogs life is to give birth to puppies. And they live in nasty conditions.

The only place I've adopted my dogs were from the Humane Society. They are usually mixes and definately not inbred. But I have been tempted to "save" a puppy from the window of a pet store. They are so irresistable. Unfortunately for me, I do not know what my boy Duke's background is. He looks full-blooded Basenji which kind of scares me because he may become very unhealthy - have a short life - due to the possibility of being inbred. (He was found abandoned with a brother in the cold of March in a parking lot.) But when I saw him, I had to have him, not because he was free, but because he needed help. (Free by no means compared to the amount of money I've paid for vet bills, fencing and toys-toys and more toys.) You can't buy love though.

Does anyone know what happens to the pet store puppies who don't get adopted?

[jessi76]

they're not "adopted" from a pet shop. They are just plain bought & sold. If a pup isn't turning a profit, I imagine he/she is of no use to the shop. I'm not sure I'd want to know, perhaps they are PTS, or worse, shipped off to another mill, posted online, etc... I imagine some are so sick they have to be PTS.

Personally, I don't even ENTER such shops. I refuse, and urge my friends/family, to not buy anything from stores that sell animals for profit. I won't support them in any way.

I do however, strongly support those large chains who have real adoption days - working in conjunction w/ a shelter/rescue group.

[YodelDogs]

Jessi76 is right, pups aren't adopted from pet stores. It is purely a financial transaction.

When I worked in a large chain shopping mall pet store when I was a very naive youngster, the price just kept dropping until someone bought the puppy. Puppies were never sent back to the breeder or broker as they had no use for them. (Shipping a single puppy back would cost more than the original price of the puppy.) Sometimes when the store really needed the space that an older, unsold puppy took up, the store manager would mark the animal off as "dead" and give it to an employee. No puppies were ever euthanized unless they were seriously ill at the store I worked at. Not to say puppies didn't die, that did happen sometimes.

At the time I worked there, all "livestock" was marked up an average of 500%. For instance, if the store bought a puppy for $100, it was priced at $499. The huge markup is needed to cover the high expense of rent and utilities in the mall and other expenses. Unsold puppies cost the store alot of money and if enough puppies (and other animals) remain unsold, the stores are sometimes forced to go out of business.

[JazzysMom]

Personally, I don't even ENTER such shops. I refuse, and urge my friends/family, to not buy anything from stores that sell animals for profit. I won't support them in any way.

I do however, strongly support those large chains who have real adoption days - working in conjunction w/ a shelter/rescue group.


But even those large chains usually sell some pets for profit -- guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, birds, etc. It's hard to find one that doesn't sell some animal for profit.

And it's not always possible to boycott them. Around here, the only places I can buy the dog food we use are PetSmart, PetCo, or the local feed store that also sells some animals. The grocery stores and Wal-Marts only have so many options for supplies. Shopping online is not always a reasonable option.

But, I would never buy a pet from any of those places.

[Quercus]

<<But even those large chains usually sell some pets for profit -- guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, birds, etc. It's hard to find one that doesn't sell some animal for profit.>>

Yep, and I don't really have a problem with selling small pets for profit. One of the main problems I have is that puppies that are sold from pet stores didn't spend the time necessary with their mom and littermates to learn proper manners. If you spend any time training dogs, you find that the ones that have the worst problems with bite inhibition were separated from their mommas before eight weeks old.

Another significant problem is that breeders of mass produced puppies don't do any health testing, nor do they consider temperament before throwing two dogs together. Heck, you are lucky if they even throw two dogs of the same breed together before claiming their puppies are "quality" purebreds. And THEN people pay four digit price tags for a dog where health, pedigree and temperament are unknowns...when they could have found a responsible breeder that would have charged them half that amount for a puppy, and been available to help for the rest of the puppies life....crazy.....

I am ranting again.....

[Ambered]

i think often people buy puppies from such stores on an impulse. i have also found breeder websites, where you put in a credit card number and they ship you a dog. luckily for me, i have had enough experiences with basenjis that i was never even tempted to do so. another reason to buy from either is that basenjis are only in season once a year, and impulsive people do not want to wait. i think a good way to look at it is by "rescuing" that one dog from the pet store, you are helping to sentence another to a life of being a "breeding stock" at a puppy mill...it is so hard to keep those things in perspective when you are looking in those little brown eyes.

[jessi76]

But even those large chains usually sell some pets for profit -- guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, birds, etc. It's hard to find one that doesn't sell some animal for profit.

you're absolutely right, and the fact that small animals such as those are sold at some large chains slipped my mind. Perhaps it doesn't bother me as much... or perhaps when I'm there I focus my attention elsewhere... who knows.

Thankfully I get my pets' food/supplies at a store that doesn't sell any live animals.

[ChaseandZahrasmom]

I bought Zahra from a pet store. Okay, beat me up, I know that I should not have but my heart broke when I saw her the first time in the pet store and then over a month later saw that she was still there. No one seemed interested in her.

I knew all about puppy mills, I always said we would buy from a breeder, adopt from a shelter, etc.

We have been lucky with Zahra, she has only so far had Mange and behavior wise potty training her has been tough. Do I wish I would not have bought her? No. Do I wish I would have adopted her or got her from a breeder? YES, then I would not feel guilty about supporting puppy mills and about the Basenji breed being compromised by bad offspring for profit.

I had only had cats previously and had always adopted from the Humane Society, Animal Shelters, SPCA, etc. My last cat was adopted through a rescue that was at PetSmart, after 10 months and a lot of vet bills my cat was diagnosed with Leukemia and had to be put to sleep even though the rescue claimed to have done all the test (long story but it turns out that the rescue may not have been very reputable).

I too had always wondered, with the gut wrenching thought of what probably happens to pet store animals that are not adopted.

[Quercus]

<<I bought Zahra from a pet store. Okay, beat me up, I know that I should not have but my heart broke when I saw her the first time in the pet store and then over a month later saw that she was still there. No one seemed interested in her.>>

I won't beat you up, I promise :) We all love our dogs however we got them; I just want to people to make sure that they go into dog purchases/adoptions/whatever with their eyes wide open, so they can make an educated choice.

[ChaseandZahrasmom]

You know the one thing that I did not think about was the possibility that I would want to enter Zahra in Lure Coursing or other activities like that and when you buy from a pet store you can't do that because they are not AKC dogs, they are the pet store version of a kennel club, ACA. I am waiting to apply for the AKC waiver for Zahra once her coat clears up from the mange.

I think when you buy at the pet store you don't think about things like that you are thinking about how cute this dog is and how sorry you feel that it is stuck in that tiny cage behind the glass.

[youngandtired]

Ok, so you guys don't like pet stores, well, I am glad I went into one or I wouldn't have been introduced to this wonderful breed. Yea, I paid too much, but what the heck, I would spend it somewhere else and not gotten the love I have gotten from this purchase. My Sahara could not be any better, she is just the sweetest thing. She is well mannered, and housebroken, which by the way was easy, and she loves everyone she sees. I don't understand how breeders don't make a profit on their puppies, they sell them don't they. If there was no profit I don't think there would be many breeders doing it, it is not easy I am sure. So, once again, I am glad I went into a pet store.:D

[Quercus]

<<I don't understand how breeders don't make a profit on their puppies, they sell them don't they. If there was no profit I don't think there would be many breeders doing it, it is not easy I am sure.>>

I don't want to get into an argument about this. I clearly said I understand that everyone of us loves their dogs regardless of where they came from. But the huge majority of responsible breeders simply don't make a profit on a litter of basenji puppies. For one thing, responsible breeders spend hundreds of dollars on health tests for each of the their breeding dogs...some of which will never be bred because of the outcome of the tests. Most responsible breeders are involved in some sort of activity which tests the quality of the dog, either showing in conformation, or lure coursing for our breed...it can cost hundreds of dollars in entry fees to finish a dog's conformation championship. It can cost quite a bit of money to use a stud that complements a bitch in temperament, health and conformation....in addition to a stud fee, the owner of the stud usually gets a puppy back as well.

So to break it down: You pay $800 for show quality bitch; Health testing and vet care to raise a bitch from 8 weeks to 3 yrs, $300; Testing for hips, eyes and thyroid, $400; Showing to championship, not including travel, $250; Stud fee, $500; Pregnancy vet care $200. By my math, that adds up to about $2400. So your bitch has 4 puppies, you keep one, the stud owner gets one, that gives you two to sell, and likely pet in your area sell for about $600...so you earn $1200. About half of what you spent. And of course, you could breed your bitch again, and make up the other half of what you put into her...but I sure wouldn't call that turning a profit. Of course, your bitch might have six puppies instead of four...but then she might have one....or she might have a C-section and put you fovever in the money hole.....

[Quercus]

In the end, my problem with pet stores that sell dogs, isn't really about the money (though that is irritating). It is what puppy mills do to the dogs that they breed from...they are kept as domestic breeding stock, in pens...some more comfortable than others...but what kind of life is that for a dog? They don't get to socialize with other dogs, they don't get to feel sunshine, or a warm comfy bed.

And don't get me started on what they do to a breed. By disregarding health and temperament puppy-milling can turn a sweet, healthy breed into a nightmare.

Youngandtired says this:
<<If there was no profit I don't think there would be many breeders doing it, it is not easy I am sure.>>

Well, you haven't met many basenji breeders then. Responsible breeders are stewards of the breed, not producers of it. Breeders have different reasons for breeding...but no one that I know (and I know MANY) are breeding for profit. We breed because we love the breed, and want to protect it.

I am glad you are happy with Sahara, and I am glad she has presented you with no problems, I hope it continues that way forever. You are very lucky :)

[lvoss]

Andrea is right, if you add up all of the costs of a responsibly bred litter it adds up pretty quickly. And she probably underestimated some of the costs. Right now, I am paying $108 per progesterone test to get the timing right for my planned litter since I have to get my girl to Arizona on time. So far we have done 3 tests and she hasn't ovulated yet. Then there is the stud fee to pay. On day 28 I do an ultrasound to confirm pregnancy that runs another $75. A few days before she is due I have her in for another check and x-ray to make sure that everything is going okay and so we know how many puppies to expect which runs another $100. Then within 48 hours of whelping the pups go in to have their dew claws removed, at my vet that costs $45 for the first puppy and $15 for every other one. I do eye exams on every one of my puppies before they go home, that is $35 per puppy, microchips are also $35 per puppy. 2 sets of puppy shots, which I can't remember exact costs but is about $45 for the visit and then the vaccine cost which is between $15-20 per puppy.

I have left out the cost of the supplies for whelping and cleaning up after the puppies. There is also all the food that a litter of puppies will go through. A responsible breeder does not breed to make profit, they breed because they love the breed and want puppy for themselves.

[Quercus]

Oh Geez! Yeah, I forgot all about the money that goes into the puppies before they go to their new homes! Thanks for pointing that out Lisa.

I did intentionally understimate a lot of the costs...I was doing it as if it were a "shoestring" breeding budget. But of course, lots of people do progesterone testing, and even artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization....very costly....not something you do to make more money...only for a love of the breed.

[Duke]

Andrea is right. There is a huge responsibility involved in maintaining a healthy breed - not to mention all the money for all things mentioned by a breeder. Most people don't know it - I surely didn't know how much went into a breeder's litter of pups. However, dog show people do. I always thought dog show people bred for dog show people. Isn't that naive? (I'm not a dog show person <yet!>) I am learning alot of stuff here. You'll know the quality of your puppies blood line when purchased from a breeder. You'll never know that from pet shop.


Wherever our puppies came from and if you're reading this, we are likely responsible pet owners. I am happy for all animals to have a healthy, loving home and I feel so sad when they don't.

[annandael]

I have to give Kudos to those who save the BYB/Puppymill dogs...the shelter dogs...but also those who take the time, love, patience, and money to show a dogs to their CH and ensure all the dogs have their health tests done and cleared before they breed them.

I know that I am trying to be one of the latter with my two. I really hope I help the breed in the future.

[Duke]

I just came upon this web site, while looking at Black Dog Ware online . . . Can't believe it - Coincidence?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006607120384

It's about Pet Store Puppies and reasons not to buy. OMG!!

[youngandtired]

I opened this can, but that's Ok. Yes, I am blessed with my purchase from a pet store. I really expected a response on this issue, and I am not going to argue about it either. I am not a breeder, and I expected breeders on this subject to give their opinion, future breeders as well. To be honest I will probably buy my next B from a breeder b/c concerns that have become clear to me about puppy mills. But the fact remains if that pet store had not been there I would know nothing about this breed. :D

[Terry]

Surprised Sharon hasn't chimed in on this yet - as a BRAT Rescue Coordinator, she has undoubtedly seen many many puppy mill dogs. I remember just a couple of years ago here in Fresno a puppy mill was closed down - our vet, who owns one of our Basenjis, took 2 of the dogs to foster. They were a mother/daughter pair. The mother had been bred several times and when they were rescued, both dogs were living in a 200 size Vari-Kennel which had about 10 inches of compacted feces in the bottom, making even less space for them. They took weeks to learn to walk properly. They had never been in a house, were terrified of people, and didn't even know how to eat from a dog dish - apparently what food they got was just tossed into the crate on top of the poop. Fortunately, dogs, even Basenjis, are incredibly forgiving of humans. The mother was adopted, and our vet kept the younger girl. They are both doing well now, but they definitely don't have the same irreverent, happy attitude of Basenjis from healthy loving homes.

We had a miniature poodle from a pet shop before our Basenjis. I know where Jill is coming from when she says she thought dog show people bred for dog show people. We thought similarly - we thought if you wanted a show dog or a breeding dog you went to a breeder, if you wanted a pet, of course you went to a pet store! We learned. And another part of being a breeder is educating everyone you know about why buying from a breeder is a better idea.

Terry

[Duke]

Youngandtired - your posts keep it interesting and you bring up a valid point. You found Sahara and this amazing breed. When I discovered that Duke was a Basenji, I was at first worried, but I understood him better and realized how blessed I am for taking an abandoned puppy home. He was a day away from going to the Humane Society. Basenji's are one cool breed.

[lvoss]

Terry, I agree, puppymills and pet stores contribute a large number of dogs to rescue. Because pet stores are really relying on that impulse buy of that "cute" puppy, people get dogs without knowing anything about the breed. For some people this works out and both the person and dog are happy but there are far too many instances where after that "Oh how cute" feeling wears off the person is frustrated by behaviors that are natural to the breed and with no continuing support finally decide to get rid of the dog. For some that decision comes fairly quickly, I have seen several listing on rescue sites around "puppy season" for pet store puppies given up by their owners in the first 3-4 weeks when they realize that basenjis are an active breed in need of more attention and exercise than they are able to provide. More heartbreaking are the ones that the owners throw in the backyard for a couple of years and only see for feeding before they decide that it is unfair for the dog and decide to give it up.

[youngandtired]

When I saw my Sahara in the pet store, I asked questions about the breed. They were very helpful and had a large book on dog breeds and what to expect. I remember reading that B could be hard to housebreak, (they did it by giving stars, only 3 stars here.) It also stated that B were stubborn and some do not get along with other B or other house dogs. In fact, I mentioned to my son that maybe this breed was not for me, b/c I had once had a toy poodle that I could not housebreak and I didn't want to go through that again. He of course talked right over that point and said that now that I don't work it would be easier, and by Golly, he was right. Sahara is fully housebroken, and it wasn't that hard, but she is still STUBBORN. haha:D

[DebraDownSouth]

I have no idea what is wrong, have tried to post 3 times and I either get "forbidden" notes or it hangs up. SOOOO if this appears a few times, I am sorry... trying again

http://hometown.aol.com/debradownsth/page3.html

[bellabasenji]

Yes, I am glad you are not going to beat us up. Bella came from a pet store, too. She was an impulse buy of my husband (he got her for my birthday). She is my first dog, I also only had cats that we had rescued. I am not sorry I got her, I love her so much! I will; however, should I decide in the future to get another puppy, buy from a reputable breeder.

[JoeyQ]

Another item to consider is that most breeders (I think) "offer" a lifetime "return" policy :D . My breeder said if for any reason, no matter how old he is, if you don't want him anymore (can't imagine that!!), I will take him back. I actually got Joey when he was 10 months. Call me crazy, but with 5 kids I did not want a puppy. I am sure that I could not have come close to raising Joey so well for his first 10 months as the breeder did. There are still things Joey should learn, but at least I didn't screw him up (as I probably would have, I am a novice dog owner!) in the "informative" years!

[Quercus]

<<Another item to consider is that most breeders (I think) "offer" a lifetime "return" policy >>

Correct! Responsible breeders will make it clear to you that if you can't keep the dog for whatever reason, they will be happy to take it back. It may be an inconvenience for the breeder, but we would much rather have the dog back so we can rehome him, than to have the dog be in a bad situation, or placed in a shelter.

You also always have someone to turn to and ask "is this normal?" , or "what do I do now?" with a responsible breeder. They are happy to help you out for the dog's entire life!

Some breeders will also help you out financially with vet bills up to the cost of the dog, if your dog develops a late onset inherited disease (like Fanconi, PRA, or Hip Dysplasia...not all do this though!..as it is very difficult to predict if the pups they sell will develop any of these diseases)

[Quercus]

If people are looking for a puppy, they should ask the breeders they are interviewing about the above mentioned questions. If they don't have an answer, or you aren't comfortable with the answer...don't buy a puppy from that person.

[lvoss]

Taking back the pups that you produce regardless of their age at the time the are returned is on characteristic of a responsible breeder. Responsible breeders also do health testing on the parents such as OFA for hips, CERF for eyes, and monthly strip testing. Responsible breeders have a waiting list before they breed though sometimes litters are bigger than expected or a home or two may not work out.

The OFA website is great place to check if breeders are doing health testing. Since most breeders use their kennel name as the first word you can type in the their kennel name in the Quick Search and see if there are any dogs listed. If it is a popular kennel name you can use the advanced search to limit the results to a specific breed. http://www.offa.org

[StellaGirl]

I here you about pet store puppys. that is where i got my stella. I just could not leave her in there anylonger every day that i came to work she would whine and cry she got there the last week of march i took her home the 1st week of july. She did not sell because every time someone looked at her she would pee or bite at them. So far she has not nipped at me.At 1st she hated my other dog <a 75 lbs vizsla> but now i can't keep them apart.I just wish i knew why she has not grown but to half the size and has a skin problem that my vets can not pin point.So she is my miniture B !
Merry X-mas and a happy Baroo year from stella and I

[StellaGirl]

hello i usedto work at petland and i can tell you what they do w/ the puppys they cant sell Hunte kennel corp sends them to texas to be sold at a flea market and if they do not sell they put them in whats called a bone barrel need i say more i got my B from there just because i loved her sooooooooooo much and if i did not take her she was going to be sent back to hunte in a week or 2 so my hubby thinks they gave me the B but i payed 1,500$ for her and i would do it again just to have her in my live but please if you can dont shop at pet stores where they sell puppies or cats thank you shannon & stella

[lvoss]

I don't think it can be emphasized enough that every time someone buys a puppy from petstore it only perpetuates the puppymill cycle by showing there is a market for those puppies. When people buy from petstores to "save" the puppy, they doom the parents and future siblings because the puppymills don't care why someone buys their puppies only that they buy them.

[Quercus]

<<thinks they gave me the B but i payed 1,500$ >>

Oh my Gosh! That is about twice what a responsible breeder in most areas of the country would charge!

I can understand why you felt like you had to save her...I would probably have felt the same way! I think you did exactly the right thing, you realized what those stores are all about, saved your girl, and got out...can't blame you for that!

But Lisa is right, the only way for the public to send a message, and stop these cruel people is to not buy from them. Most people don't realized the truth about pet stores (I think even a lot of the employees don't) but once they realize they vow not to use them.

[tanza]

Yikes.... 1500.00.... outrageous, not that you paid that... but that they are selling a puppymill dog for that kind of money.... no health testing, no socialization as a baby... nothing.... However, glad that you gave a baby a forever home .... can certainly understand...

And it is amazing how many employees at pet stores don't have a clue about responsible breeding and placing puppies... they (most of them) are suckered into thinking this is the way it is done....

[nomrbddgs]

I had warned some acquaintances about buying a puppy they had seen (for $1500) they went and bought anyway. This was a mixed breed too!!

[bellabasenji]

Bella was $900.00 (she was marked down because a customer "dropped" her and sprained her front ankle). The ankle healed as the vet said it would since the x-rays did not show a break. I did have an idea about the mills at the time, but not how bad they really are. Besides she was a gift from my husband I could not refuse... I am so glad to have her and wonder what kind of life, if any, she would be living if I had not gotten her. With the sprained ankle she may not have found a home. Then who knows what would have happened to her:(

[gbroxon]

On some of the other non-Basenji forums I belong to, I close my eyes and pray when someone comes on with a question about what kind of puppy to get. I always say to myself, "Don't anybody suggest a Basenji. Don't anybody suggest a Basenji."

Can you tell I hate what happens when a dog breed becomes "popular"? It especially bothers me with Basenjis (wonder why, LOL!?!?!). They just ain't anywhere near typical to what the general public expects from a dog. I hate to even imagine what would happen if there was a "101 Basenjis" movie made. (Please, Powers-that-be, don't ever let them remake "Goodbye My Lady.")

I know, I'm crazy! :p

[ChaseandZahrasmom]

Isn't funny how many not your regular dog things that the Basenji has that we cringe about but in a sick twisted way we adore? My friends with normal dogs will never get it and our "normal" dog has been corrupted by our B! LOL!

While I got Zahra from a pet store I do agree with you about the popularity thing. I just don't think that this is the dog for everyone and they are certainly more of a challenge than a lab.

I did my homework on the breed (not the puppy mills, I know better now) when my husband started talking about getting one I researched it online and became fearful from all that I have read. When I saw her in the pet store I thought there was no way this adorable thing could destroy my house. Right. I type this as I sit surrounded by shredded papertowls and two dog coated in glue from a mouse trap.

[vstripe]

Speaking of dogs becoming "popular". I met a woman at the dog park with 4 B's who feels like they are becoming the new popular dog. I was just wondering if people in other parts of the country feel that way or if its just an LA thing.

[vstripe]

I understand why people are so protective about B's. Although recently I met a man who had gone to basenji rescue and said he was given the cold shoulder when he said he never owned a basenji. He ended up buying from a breeder and now is totally in love with his basenji that he has had for a few years. I wonder are we being too cautious?
My other two cents (sorry bored tonight)...
I read so many articles in dog magazines that are quick to point out how B's are so hyper, distructive, chew everything, are so difficult/stubborn and hard to train. Just by what is written in magazines I would never want a basenji. Why are they portrayed so negatively!
My boy is soooo layed back and mellow he is totally sweet to my dog walker/sitter the vet and the groomer. He is great with kids people of all ages great with other dogs knows a handfull of tricks does not do weird things with toilet paper/trash can or destroy my house does not make a big deal about water doesnt mind when I wake him or move him when sleeping. He is awsome with my other small pets. He's just a mellow go with the flow kind of guy (can you tell I'm a proud dog mom). I guess what I am trying to say is I feel like people are so quick to point out the bad traits in basenjis lets focus on the good! I long for the day that people dont make a face at me and say "oh I heard those dogs are crazy"< yes I hear that alote, and instead say "oh I hear those dogs are wonderful pets".

[Duke]

I understand why people are so protective about B's. Although recently I met a man who had gone to basenji rescue and said he was given the cold shoulder when he said he never owned a basenji. He ended up buying from a breeder and now is totally in love with his basenji that he has had for a few years. I wonder are we being too cautious?
My other two cents (sorry bored tonight)...
I read so many articles in dog magazines that are quick to point out how B's are so hyper, distructive, chew everything, are so difficult/stubborn and hard to train. Just by what is written in magazines I would never want a basenji. Why are they portrayed so negatively!
My boy is soooo layed back and mellow he is totally sweet to my dog walker/sitter the vet and the groomer. He is great with kids people of all ages great with other dogs knows a handfull of tricks does not do weird things with toilet paper/trash can or destroy my house does not make a big deal about water doesnt mind when I wake him or move him when sleeping. He is awsome with my other small pets. He's just a mellow go with the flow kind of guy (can you tell I'm a proud dog mom). I guess what I am trying to say is I feel like people are so quick to point out the bad traits in basenjis lets focus on the good! I long for the day that people dont make a face at me and say "oh I heard those dogs are crazy"< yes I hear that alote, and instead say "oh I hear those dogs are wonderful pets".
I agree totally. I hadn't ever heard of this breed until after we had Duke in the house 4 mos. (He was abandoned) We brought this 12 week old whipper-snapper home determined to keep him. I wouldn't want this breed to be "popular" in the sense of the word, but it would be nice if the breed were known. i.e. the Jack Russell (Parsons) terrier is a known breed typed "hyper". Knowing that, I never in a million years wanted that type of breed. But, alas - I have that type in the Basenji breed. The positive characteristics about Basenjis are only known to the ones who adore and love them. My family couldn't imagine why I wanted another dog like Duke. (we just added a B-mix puppy into our family). They've only seen Dukes disposition when he was a 6-7 mo old pup. They haven't lived with him to discover his positive quirky side - the side that made me fall in love with him. That side is much bigger than the hyper.

[Quercus]

<<He is great with kids people of all ages great with other dogs knows a handfull of tricks does not do weird things with toilet paper/trash can or destroy my house does not make a big deal about water doesnt mind when I wake him or move him when sleeping. He is awsome with my other small pets. He's just a mellow go with the flow kind of guy (can you tell I'm a proud dog mom). >>

That is great! But it is kind of unusual. I am not sure how old your Basenji is, but that is *really unusual if he is under three years old. I understand you rescued your dog, so if you ask the group that you rescued him through, I think you will understand why we don't want the general public to say "these dogs are wonderful pets" The Basenji *could be advertised as the perfect dog....they don't bark, they don't smell, they don't shed much, they are 'hypoallergenic', and they are a smallish dog with a bigger personality. That sounds great to a lot of people who don't really want a dog ;) or one person in the family wants one, and the other doesn't. "oh, you won't even notice he is here, he doesn't bark, he doesn't smell, and he cleans himself!' So these people buy a puppy, and go thru all the normal puppy stuff, plus all the relentless basenji stuff. And as everyone assures them the destruction and the screaming in the crate will get better with age, it doesn't. And then maybe the dog starts challenging them as he reaches adulthood. They learn to cope with his "moods" and then they have a baby...the dog is threatened and nervous of the baby...bye, bye dog.

I tell people, we try to scare you away, and if you are *still interested, maybe you are a good match for a Basenji. And, I won't start telling people any differently, because I want to make sure they are FULLY aware of what they *could be getting into. Some Basenjis really *are the perfect dog...but the majority are not the type of dog that someone who wants an *easy dog is looking for.

Hopefully you have or read thru the forum and realize how many problems there are with dog/dog interactions in Basenjis, personal space issues, waking while sleeping, destruction, crate issues. These are issues that can be dealt with a lot of training...but most people don't want a dog that is a "fixer upper". I don't mean people like us, people that ended up here....we like a challenge :)

I love it when people admire my dogs...they always ask about them, and when I give my warning, they are shocked because my dogs are acting adorable and sweet. My family, on the other hand, knows my dogs very well...and they often say 'that seems like an awful lot of work'...why not just have one sweet lab? ;)

[bellabasenji]

I do enjoy "educating people" on this breed, as Basenjis are not popular in WV. I will tell people all about the history, characteristics (positive and possibly negative), colors, and temperment. I always say how good Bella is but point out that early socilization is a factor in that. She is so good with people and other dogs! I also tell people that they need a lot of patience since this is a strong willed breed. I also tell them a good sense of humor is a must!

[Quercus]

<<I read so many articles in dog magazines that are quick to point out how B's are so hyper, distructive, chew everything, are so difficult/stubborn and hard to train. Just by what is written in magazines I would never want a basenji. Why are they portrayed so negatively!>>

I thought I would put this in a separate post :) Magazines, and their like, are known to generalize. I would say the above description is not accurate mainly because Basenjis are NOT hyper, nor are they hard to train. Basenjis can be busy, but it is always with a purpose...not like JRs...perpetual motion machine. And Basenjis are REALLY easy to train using positive reinforcement techniques...what is hard is to get them to comply when they don't see anything in it for them. Or when they are focused on something other than you. I think magazines use these words because they feel the public will understand them.

More appropriate description of a basenji would be 'independant thinker, who wants to be part of the family, and will show his displeasure at being separated. Needs a human family who is comfortable setting boundaries, and giving gentle structure. Positive reinforcement training a must. Never reliable off lead. Needs tall, secure fence. '

How is that? ;)

[Quercus]

I do enjoy "educating people" on this breed, as Basenjis are not popular in WV. I will tell people all about the history, characteristics (positive and possibly negative), colors, and temperment. I always say how good Bella is but point out that early socilization is a factor in that. She is so good with people and other dogs! I also tell people that they need a lot of patience since this is a strong willed breed. I also tell them a good sense of humor is a must!

Oh, yes, I forgot that point...sense of humor...and ability to laugh at oneself:)

[nomrbddgs]

I love my B's, all 3 of them! But, they are a challenge and you always have to be one your toes. Most people don't have the patience for them and expect them to 'behave' and get made when they don't, and always blame the dog for the trouble they have initially created. I find age isn't a factor for them. When you think they're past all the destructiveness, willfullness, and stubbornness, they come up with something new. Expect the unexpected. I tell some people about Basenji decoration techniques and they think I'm nuts to have one never mind three. But I love them and would never consider not having at least one....two.....more???

[StellaGirl]

OK as we all know i got Stella from Petland in Cleveland.I can tell you what happens to the puppys that are not bought. Hunte Kennel Corp> ,or Quality Dog the two comps. that Petland gets puppy from will take back the puppys and ship them to other stats to flea markets if they are not sold after 1 -2 weeks they are put down. I have also work for the APL in S. ohio and we tried to get both hunte and q d closed but they are just to big. You know i say never buy a dog or a cat from a pet store but what about all the other pets that are in there. I have seen live Rats thrown in to freezers to be killed while they are healthy and alive pet stores make me sick! But i am still using them to get my dog toys and bowls and stuff. if any one has any ? on hunte or Quality Dog (QD) please e mail me or pm me i have lots of info on both that i cann tell you .

Thanks for all your help w/ my Stella and reading this

Shannon

[Quercus]

<<I have also work for the APL in S. ohio and we tried to get both hunte and q d closed but they are just to big.>>

What is APL? And yes, Hunte is big..and actually operating completely legally, and cleanly. Ethically? I guess that depends on where your ethics lie...I think it may be time for domestic "pets" to be separated from dometic "livestock" so that dogs and cats cannot be treated in the same manner as cattle and pigs...but that is a whole 'nother ethical argument :)

The only way to shut this industry down, at this point is make it so that people DON'T buy from pet stores (I do mean stores that sell dogs and cats here). Even supplies, the money still goes in their pocket. If we educate the public about how to find puppies, kittens, cats and dogs, we can end mass pet production. Even if people have to turn to irresponsible backyard breeders, that IMO is better than mass puppy producers. At least a lot of backyard breeders take good care of the breeding stock, unlike the mass prodcuers.

Anyhow, that is absolutely disgusting about the rats in the freezers....that should be reported, as I am SURE that is not condoned by the management...or at least, Gawd, I hope not!

[StellaGirl]

Andrea the APL is the Animal Protective Leauge. And the rats were done by the owners othe the store a another reason i had to leave. I have called Peta and the dog warden i just dont know what to do. My hands are tied. My husban says my heart is to big for me and i cant save everything, and i know that. I just do what i can. Oh by the way i rescue wild animals and my be just loves the baby squarils<how ever you spell it > The sad thing about Petland in Cleveland heights is that the 2 owners and i was realy good friends and now i see how they are w/ the animals they tell me " It's just stock I can get more" I started at petland the day they opened jan 16th of 06 the 1st two weeks we were open we had 63 dogs dieI should have known. as of last week my friend still works there the dead dog tally is 250! I cant see how she does it. i have had dogs i have brought home cause they were sick when i worked at the pet store that have died in my arm or over night in my house i still cry over those puppys im not a vet but they made us take them home or they would stay at the store in those cages my pet rats HAVE better cages so do my other animals so to keep harping on this its just been on my mind since i got Stella my B.

[lvoss]

The only way to shut this industry down, at this point is make it so that people DON'T buy from pet stores (I do mean stores that sell dogs and cats here). Even supplies, the money still goes in their pocket. If we educate the public about how to find puppies, kittens, cats and dogs, we can end mass pet production. Even if people have to turn to irresponsible backyard breeders, that IMO is better than mass puppy producers. At least a lot of backyard breeders take good care of the breeding stock, unlike the mass prodcuers.

Here in Northern California there are very few pet stores that sell dogs and cats. Part of the reason is that the news media here used to run lots of segments on puppy lemon laws, pet stores, and puppy mills. I remember one story where they talked about a pet store owner who was selling her golden retrievers at her store. Her female was dysplastic and almost every puppy produced was dysplastic and needed hip replacements to live without pain. The puppy buyers got together and sued her for the cost of the hip replacement at $2000/ joint. People here seem to be more aware of where pet store puppies come from.

[lvoss]

I read so many articles in dog magazines that are quick to point out how B's are so hyper, distructive, chew everything, are so difficult/stubborn and hard to train. Just by what is written in magazines I would never want a basenji. Why are they portrayed so negatively!


Because as Andrea says, if you read all the potential negatives and you are still interested you are less likely to give up the dog in the future. Basenjis can be active, do require regular exercise, are not 100% reliable off leash, love to chew, are incredibly persistent about getting something they want, and can require more personal space than other breeds. Not all basenjis will have all the traits but you don't know what combination you will get. My experience is people will either love the breed or hate the breed with very little middle ground. I require all people thinking about getting a dog from me to visit with my dogs and encourage them to visit with other people's basenjis too so they can see the variety of personalities and traits in the breed.

[lvoss]

As for the person being turned down by rescue. Most rescues are very picky about their placements and some are quite inflexible about their requirements. 3 of my 5 puppy buyers had bad experiences with basenji rescue. One of those is a family I helped place a rescue basenji with 5 years ago and now has one of my puppies. One of the others was turned down because he was a college student. This same person visited my house 4 times so that he could meet my requirement that all people in the house meet the breed and agree to having the dog. But it is not just rescue, I also had 2 puppy buyers that admitted to having been a bit turned off by other breeders. One of them between the bad rescue experience and the other breeders had actually decided they were going to look for a different breed but didn't want to cancel their visit with me. The bad experiences with breeders centered around requirements that the puppy be shown and no explanation about how or why the breeder would select which puppy went to which home.

I also know that some people that have contacted me very well could have ended up getting dogs from BYBs. Some were inflexible about my requirements that companion puppies be spayed/neutered, that I do not let people just come over and pick whatever puppy they want, and I screen homes before placing people on a waiting list. For some people they consider all of this intrusive and just want to buy a puppy like they would a gallon of milk.

[StellaGirl]

I also know that some people that have contacted me very well could have ended up getting dogs from BYBs. Some were inflexible about my requirements that companion puppies be spayed/neutered, that I do not let people just come over and pick whatever puppy they want, and I screen homes before placing people on a waiting list. For some people they consider all of this intrusive and just want to buy a puppy like they would a gallon of milk.
When i got my Vizsla from my breeder i had to wait and she came and looked at my house and my other dogs, she did all kinds of stuff. It did not bother me one bit im glad she did i know i was getting a good dog and if i am paying 1,000 for a dog i want it to be a good one. Also he will be the 1st dog i have ever shown i cant wait. I dont know if i can do a show w/ my B once i get her fixed . but i dont care she and my Vizsla are my kids since i lost my baby when i was 5 mnths preg and now i cant have kids so my dogs are my kids

[Quercus]

<<My experience is people will either love the breed or hate the breed with very little middle ground. >>

That actually hasn't been my experience. I meet lots of people that really like a lot of things about the breed, but realize they just aren't a good match for their lifestyle. I think everyone I have ever met loves the way they look. The only people that I have met that have preconceived notions about basenjis being "bad" are other dog people ;)

[lvoss]

I guess I should have clarified a little. People who come to meet my dogs and spend enough time with them to see their quirks usually either love them or really don't like them. People who see them in passing admire many qualities about them and recogonize they are not the dog for them. But people who have lived with them have a very strong response one way or the other.

[Duke]

I think the general population does not know what a Basenji is. The people who call Basenji breeders know or have an idea what it is or think they'd like to have one. Some people just want to "rescue" a dog, which is what I did. I thought Duke was a little mutt. There was nothing about him that I recognized as being a type of mix. Some people see the Basenji in the window at the mall and buy it because it's little and cute. (the pet shop & puppymiller's cash in quick) Then the buyer learns from experience if this is the dog for them. In many cases, it's not and the pet shop pup ends up needing to be rescued. If more people knew what Basenjis are, decisions about acquiring and screening wouldn't be as difficult as it seems to be. IMO the Basenji Breed clubs might want to think about a strategic public relations campaign. (get a Basenji on a TV show or in a movie like the JRT on Frazier)

[Ambered]

i took fender to my neice's softball game and one of the mother's said, "that is the weirdest looking dog i have ever seen!"
i also had a man in an electrical truck pull up beside us while we were out on a stroll and said
"that's a basenji, right?"
yes
"strange dogs, i had one when i was a kid"
and then he just drove off
mostly i get ohhs and awws, he is so beautiful, what kind of dog is that? blah blah.
i have met people on the rescue side who had tried to get a dog from a reputable breeder but found the process too daunting. for a newbie, truly it can be. if you know what you really want and what you are getting yourself into you are willing to drive to the moon and back for your new friend.

[JazzysMom]

I was once in a different town following a dog show, walking Jazzy and actually got stopped by a cop. I thought I was in trouble for walking her in the area I was, and was stressing out, but he just wanted to ask about my dog. He thought she was a Basenji, and seemed to know a little about them. And, of course, she charmed him.

I've had several people stop and ask what she is, and several who know.
But I seldom go for a walk w/out someone commenting. No one has ever said she's weird looking. Usually, it's "Wow! That's a neat looking dog."

[JazzysMom]

>>I read so many articles in dog magazines that are quick to point out how >>B's are so hyper, distructive, chew everything, are so difficult/stubborn >>and hard to train. Just by what is written in magazines I would never want >>a basenji. Why are they portrayed so negatively!

LOL, I'd read it all and STILL wanted one.
Of course, I got a weird one. Named it Jazzy, expecting her to really be something wild.
She is so calm, never jumps on the furniture, never takes food off the coffee table once we say, "Leave it", I can leave her leather leash in the crate w/her and she won't chew it, she listens very well, and *usually* only chews what she's supposed to {with the very occasional infraction}.

Hmmmm, maybe she's NOT a Basenji? LOL

[tanza]

Lisa is right, very few store in No. Cal sell puppies.... I am not so sure that they really know where they come from, but more that many of the pet stores that sold pups were shut down.... but the fact that there are many stories about the Lemon Law and pet stores does certainly help.
It is very important that we all educate the general public about where pet store puppies come from... and the problems that usually come with them.... Being hard to house train, IMO, is because they are kept in a crate just about 24/7... where else would the potty?... and the fact that they are taken from their Mom's and littermates way, way to early leads to problems with early socialization. It is easy enough even from a responisble breeder to have behavior problems, let alone a puppy mill puppy....
Interesting to the comment about no one wanted the Basenji pup because she would pee or bite them... not surprising... early socialization is so important for a Basenji, and in reality, all pups regardless of the breed.
The problem with pet store puppies or even puppies from BYB is the fact that people get caught up in the moment... and by from the heart instead of the head.... I know one person that did all the homework for a Sib puppy, found a breeder, was on the list for a puppy... then her husband was in a pet store and saw a Sib puppy, bought it and took it home... 3 days later it died.... so very sad... but the Sib people got together, found them another pup from a responsible breeder and put the two together...

[Quercus]

I guess I should have clarified a little. People who come to meet my dogs and spend enough time with them to see their quirks usually either love them or really don't like them. People who see them in passing admire many qualities about them and recogonize they are not the dog for them. But people who have lived with them have a very strong response one way or the other.

Yes, absolutely! I can tell you in our area, in the past (like way long ago past), there must have been some seriously nasty basenjis. 'Cause just about everyone who knows what a basenji is then follows with the comment 'my (neighbor, aunt, family) had one of those when I was a kid...meanest dog I ever met' Yikes! At least my (and Vickie's) dogs are doing a lot to improve the breed reputation in our little part of the world :)

[nomrbddgs]

I don't think it's just there that there were mean B's. I've heard the same beginning up here as well.

[tanza]

Basenji 30 years ago were for the most part nasty.... almost all breeders that have been with this breed that long will tell you that one of the biggest challanges to the breed was temperament... and they worked on that to really improve temperaments. And of course it is our duty as breeders now to continue that along with health and conformation

[vstripe]

<<<<<Of course, I got a weird one. Named it Jazzy, expecting her to really be something wild.
She is so calm, never jumps on the furniture, never takes food off the coffee table once we say, "Leave it", I can leave her leather leash in the crate w/her and she won't chew it, she listens very well, and *usually* only chews what she's supposed to {with the very occasional infraction}.>>>>>

Its so nice to know I'm not the only one with a weird one! My basenji Garrett is so freaking lazy chewing things up is to much work lol!

[Lenora]

It's hard for me to think of basenjis as mean creatures. I got my first one 37 years ago from the Humane Society at a time when nobody knew anything about them. No internet forums back then. We just thought she was a cute little critter with great big ears and a curly pig tail. My vet knew what she was but I'd never heard of basenjis. Pumpkin was very good natured, calm, never growled or bit, and loved cats and kids. She was not too destructive but she would chew my shoes up and then hide under the bed to escape punishment, and once chewed plaster off the bathroom wall. Her specialty was treeing squirrels. She'd get halfway up the tree before realizing that she couldn't make it and just hang there waiting to be rescued. She never needed a leash but she did chase down (and caught) a motorcycle once. Before I got Abbey 3 years ago my vet said, Oh no, anything but a basenji. They're wild! I didn't listen to him but boy, was he ever right.

[nomrbddgs]

Before I got Abbey 3 years ago my vet said, Oh no, anything but a basenji. They're wild! I didn't listen to him but boy, was he ever right.

And boy, aren't you glad you didn't listen to the vet? Then you never would have had all of life's little pleasures!!

[felakuti]

we bought our sweet baby Nyahbinghi from Debbie's Petland after keeping an eye on her for over a month we couldnt stand it any more and brought her home. It was breaking our hearts to see a basenji in here shivering from the air conditioning. :( She had worms and an eye infection but we didnt care, we got her to a vet and everything cleared up, and she is our sweet one, and our felakuti is our big boy. :)

[tanza]

we bought our sweet baby Nyahbinghi from Debbie's Petland after keeping an eye on her for over a month we couldnt stand it any more and brought her home. It was breaking our hearts to see a basenji in here shivering from the air conditioning. :( She had worms and an eye infection but we didnt care, we got her to a vet and everything cleared up, and she is our sweet one, and our felakuti is our big boy. :)

While that is great that she found her forever home (was this the pup with an extra toe?).... remember each time someone buys from a pet store, they enourage pet stores to keep offering them... I only hope that for as long as that pup had to wait for a home that might discourage Debbie's Petland from getting more Basenjis. Also remember that pups in pet stores are NOT health tested....and come from NOT responsible breeders

[lvoss]

The puppy mills and pet stores do not care why you purchase a puppy from them as long as they get money. If people are willing to buy the puppy because it makes them feel better to "rescue the puppy from living in a tiny cage" the results are the same for them, they get their money. A new puppy will be bred at the mill to replace that puppy and the store will hope to pull at someone else's heartstrings to sell it. If that person is a poor match for the puppy, not their problem. Then it becomes the local taxpayers' problem when the dog gets dumped at the shelter with no ID and no way to track it back to the store and mill that produced it.

[red and white furever]

There're some great tips here!
I was just given a sticker for my car that says:
"Pet Store Puppies Come From Puppy Mills! Don't Buy 'Em!"
I sport it proudly on my bumper.
Heck, I can't even bring myself to walk into a pet store that sells puppies anymore. The last time I did, I left and burst into tears. That's no way to start off the life of a puppy, and I shudder to think what the parents of those puppies are being put through.

[jys1011]

R&WF-where did you get that!! I want one too :) Maybe we can start a campaign & stand in front of pet stores & give these out :mad:

[dmcarty]

Actually what I have done before is go into a store that sells dogs - I pick up things that I normally would buy and set them on the counter. Food, collars, bowls, leashes, beds etc . Then I 'notice' the dogs and say "I'm sorry I do not shop where dogs are sold" and leave.
NOTE: - you can't do this in the same store twice - they get testy.

[Kebasmom]

I went into a pet store in Annapolis, MD today to buy a new lead and collar for my new little guy. There a cage sat the sweetest looking little, and I mean little, tri basenji. It was so sad. They said that they had just gotten him from a breeder in Missouri today. I played with him for a bit and talked to her about Fanconi and some other things about Bs. I felt really sad leaving the little guy there. BTW they wanted 1,800.00 for him!!

[nala121498]

I went into a pet store in Annapolis, MD today to buy a new lead and collar for my new little guy. There a cage sat the sweetest looking little, and I mean little, tri basenji. It was so sad. They said that they had just gotten him from a breeder in Missouri today. I played with him for a bit and talked to her about Fanconi and some other things about Bs. I felt really sad leaving the little guy there. BTW they wanted 1,800.00 for him!!
Heartbreaking.

[torchsong]

She-Ra was a Petstore Basenji. However, I didn't go into the purchase completely blind. I knew about the dangers of petstore dogs, but had also researched the breed quite a bit (some neighbors had one when I was a kid and I'd always been fascinated with the quiet dog with the curly tail! :) ), so I knew some of what to expect.

She was $600, which sounds a bit closer to the mark for normal prices. The salespeople put us in an isolated room for about an hour with her to see if there was any kind of rapport with her. While we were getting to know her they provided her AKC (not ACC) papers and an updated list of the medications (vaccinations she'd already had and the ones she still needed as a puppy). In addition, they've maintained contact with us to see if the puppy is working out and what questions/issues we've had since taking ownership. They helped us get her microchipped and signed up to put our names on her AKC papers (I'm not planning to breed her so the latter part really wasn't that important to me).

Our family vet checked her over and said we must have gotten lucky, because (knock wood) she's in great health for her age. In no way would I suggest our pet store was one in a million, and I'm sure there's bad to go along with the good, but perhaps some actually do take steps to care for the animals in their charge?

In any event, she's my baby and I love her even when she chews up my books! :)

[dmcarty]

Just keep in mind for every puppy you buy from the petstore - that creates demand in the pipeline from more puppy mills to produce more basenjis

[tanza]

I went into a pet store in Annapolis, MD today to buy a new lead and collar for my new little guy. There a cage sat the sweetest looking little, and I mean little, tri basenji. It was so sad. They said that they had just gotten him from a breeder in Missouri today. I played with him for a bit and talked to her about Fanconi and some other things about Bs. I felt really sad leaving the little guy there. BTW they wanted 1,800.00 for him!!

Just sick... when you consider Responsible breeders (depending on the part of the county) place pups between 700.00 to 900.00..... And I am sure that pup has no AKC papers...

[Kebasmom]

When I was playing with the puppy the girl asked me how I knew about basenjis. When I told her I had one she asked me how much I paid for him. When I told her, she about flipped (it was WAY less than 1,800). I have a feeling the price on that puppy may drop. Interesting though was that the little silky terrier was only 1200. The basenji was the most expensive dog they had in there. I wonder how they decide what to charge....

[Quercus]

She-Ra was a Petstore Basenji. However, I didn't go into the purchase completely blind. I knew about the dangers of petstore dogs, but had also researched the breed quite a bit (some neighbors had one when I was a kid and I'd always been fascinated with the quiet dog with the curly tail! :) ), so I knew some of what to expect.

She was $600, which sounds a bit closer to the mark for normal prices. The salespeople put us in an isolated room for about an hour with her to see if there was any kind of rapport with her. While we were getting to know her they provided her AKC (not ACC) papers and an updated list of the medications (vaccinations she'd already had and the ones she still needed as a puppy). In addition, they've maintained contact with us to see if the puppy is working out and what questions/issues we've had since taking ownership. They helped us get her microchipped and signed up to put our names on her AKC papers (I'm not planning to breed her so the latter part really wasn't that important to me).

Our family vet checked her over and said we must have gotten lucky, because (knock wood) she's in great health for her age. In no way would I suggest our pet store was one in a million, and I'm sure there's bad to go along with the good, but perhaps some actually do take steps to care for the animals in their charge?

In any event, she's my baby and I love her even when she chews up my books! :)


Sounds like you got really lucky, and it also sounds like your pet store is a little better than average! But the fact remains that dogs in pet stores come from puppy mills. And people who breed dogs for puppy mills don't do any genetic or physical health or temperament screening of the parents. So the health problems that *may occur wouldn't necessarily show up in the offspring for many years, as most Basenji diseases are late onset.

The other issue, as Diane pointed out, is that by paying for a pet store puppy, you are supporting an industry that is very, VERY cruel to dogs. Just ask Vegas (a regular poster here)....or go back to the thread about the puppymill rescue dogs here within the last six months or so. Sires and dams of pet store puppies are bred, and bred, and bred, with no regard for their physical health..they live in pens with the bare minimum needed for survival.

I am glad that your story is a happy one. And I KNOW you love your puppy very much, as you should, of course. But we can't, as dog loving people turn a blind eye to the cruelty and unacceptability of the pet store-puppymill situation.

When we know better, we do better :)

[Larka]

I've seen dogs that were rescued from puppymills. I've seen dogs that were thrown out of petstores because they weren't bought. I know of a petstore back in Nebraska that was shut down because they would drown or strangulate puppies that didn't sell past a certain point in time. And the price some people want is crazy. At the shelter I work for- I have dozens of puppies that are healthy, have all their shots that they can get for their age, the spay or neuter is in the price of the dog and so is a free vet visit- for $150. Or you can get the puppy in the window for a couple hundred and could have all kinds of issues. We get puppies in from stores that are just dropped off in boxes at the shelter because they got "too old" (5 or 6 months) and they weren't being sold. We have a handful of purebred dogs that even have their paper work, but they're at the shelter because they weren't bringing in money. Petstores see puppies as just another thing to sell.

Sorry, I'm ranting. :) I could go on a whole other rant about people always wanting puppies and not older dogs, but I'll spare you. :)

[torchsong]

I am glad that your story is a happy one. And I KNOW you love your puppy very much, as you should, of course. But we can't, as dog loving people turn a blind eye to the cruelty and unacceptability of the pet store-puppymill situation.


I'm chalking it up to getting lucky at this point, but many of the horror stories I've heard on here don't seem to have happened...yet. Maybe I caught them on a good day.

I do know my experience wasn't anything like what I've been reading on here. Is it a fact that 100% of pet stores buy from puppy mills? I have been to some and yes, you can visually see the problems with some of the animals and it is heartbreaking. I guess I'm wondering if all pet stores should be lumped into the same category...it's not possible there are (and I'm using the term loosely) "honest" pet stores to exist?

[tanza]

I'm chalking it up to getting lucky at this point, but many of the horror stories I've heard on here don't seem to have happened...yet. Maybe I caught them on a good day.

I do know my experience wasn't anything like what I've been reading on here. Is it a fact that 100% of pet stores buy from puppy mills? I have been to some and yes, you can visually see the problems with some of the animals and it is heartbreaking. I guess I'm wondering if all pet stores should be lumped into the same category...it's not possible there are (and I'm using the term loosely) "honest" pet stores to exist?

IMO, NO.... there is not a responsible breeder that would ever place a pup for sale in a pet store... no way, no how... Pet Store do not get puppies from responsible breeders... now granted they could buy from a local Backyard breeder... but that is not much better then a pet store....

[tanza]

IMO, NO.... there is not a responsible breeder that would ever place a pup for sale in a pet store... no way, no how... Pet Store do not get puppies from responsible breeders... now granted they could buy from a local Backyard breeder... but that is not much better then a pet store....

Sent that too soon.... pet store that buys from a puppymiller

[lvoss]

The bottom line is that for the petstore to make money and the "breeder" to make money then there is no way for the dogs in a pet store to be bred in a responsbile way. If you ask any responsible breeder what the cost of a responsibly bred litter is, there is no way to do it and make money without cutting costs somewhere and those places are going to be in the care of the dogs. Some petstores puppies may show visible signs of the low cost care they have recieved while others may not or may not show signs until many months or even years after you have brought the pup home.

Did the petstore that you bought your puppy from tell you about the genetically inherited diseases in the breed? Did they tell you that a responsible breeder tests for these diseases and makes their breeding decisions based on the results? Did the petstore tell you that the diseases in basenjis are mostly late onset so your health garuntees will be long expired before you dog shows any symptoms?

[ChaseandZahrasmom]

Did the petstore that you bought your puppy from tell you about the genetically inherited diseases in the breed? Did they tell you that a responsible breeder tests for these diseases and makes their breeding decisions based on the results? Did the petstore tell you that the diseases in basenjis are mostly late onset so your health garuntees will be long expired before you dog shows any symptoms?

We got Zahra from a petstore (I am smarter now and also a member of BRAT), they told us nothing about the breed other than it was barkless and showed us a book that had hundreds of breeds in it. The only health guarentee that they gave us was I think for the first 10 days that we had the dog or if the vet found something wrong. Even if that happened I think you got a store credit for the price of the dog when you returned the dog. Zahra had been there a while and was marked down to $1000 I got them to come down to $975 she was originally $1300.

There are only two pet stores that sell pets in the Hampton Roads area that I know of. I am sure that number could be less and we would all be happier but I am happy to see that not every mall in this area has a pet store.

[BasenjiDiva]

One of the problems is that many people have this naive belief that because a pet store is in a mall and has a sort of polished look about it, the dogs must be "better". I honestly think many people think a pet store is sort of a dog breeders' outlet store. They don't realize that isn't the case. Example: When my older son was 11, he wanted a snake. I convinced him to get an iquana instead. When he was 14, he was no longer interested in the iquana and it had grown quite large. We advertised it in the paper at a reasonable price and got a few calls but no bites. So we ended up selling it to a pet store in the mall - where they multiplied our price by 5 and sold it within hours! The guy who bought it was one of our telephone inquirers and he called us to ask if we would sell him our glass case because, he had decided it would be better to buy from the pet store where he could be better assured as to iguana's background. My husband "educated him" on how much his stupidity had cost him.

I don't think we have still have any pet stores around here that sell dogs. However, people here buy dogs from the flea market and they aren't cheap!! And I'd be willing to bet that they also come from puppy mills.

Pat

[elena86]

My brother and his wife bought Senji at a Petland at the mall for $700, including the crate. My sister-in-law read a little about basenjis...how they don't bark, are clean, etc, and decided that this is the dog she wanted. The petstore said that someone had actually "returned" him, and that they never get basenjis on a regular basis. They were also told that the "breeder" didn't want him because "all his markings were wrong." And that he wouldn't make a good show dog. The only thing that was wrong with him when they got him was some sort of growth on the back of his neck. The vet gave them some sort of ointment, and it went away. I ended up inheriting Senji when he was six. This past winter, at 11 years old, he almost died of liver disease. The vet thinks his liver problems may have been due to a congenital abnormality. He's doing much better now due to the meds, so hopefully, he'll be around a few more years.

[Larka]

I think you got a store credit for the price of the dog when you returned the dog.


I want "store credit" for a remote or something, not a life. And then what happens to the "returned" dog? The thought gives me chills. Even at the shelter, we get people who want to return a dog a get a refund. For why? Two of the guys had the dogs run away on them. Another one he just doesn't want the dog anymore. And now you want a refund from us because you can't take care of the dog? You just going to return your kids to the hospital when they don't listen or run away or you "just don't want them"? And then demand a refund from the doctor.

Sorry about that. I'm a little sore because we got kicked out of a Petsmart where we were doing adoptions because the Petland across the way was selling puppymill puppies and "we were taking their business. And they're an established company there and not just some non-profit."

[Duke]

Sorry about that. I'm a little sore because we got kicked out of a Petsmart where we were doing adoptions because the Petland across the way was selling puppymill puppies and "we were taking their business. And they're an established company there and not just some non-profit."
I don't quite understand this . . . Everyone has business taking care of business that other's do not. So why the big uproar over an adoption "across the street" (not advocating puppy millers)!?! Different story comletely...Just goes to show, again many people revolve without "common sense"!! This is a "sticky topic" so to speak.

I will never forget my earlier years when I've rescued and found homes of many pets to their owners. I knew that dogs wondering along the railways were someones pets. They were all (usually) intact male dogs. Once, I found out that (2) dogs that I happily reunited with their owners, subsequently deceased to heat exhaustion. The owners killed their dogs by not allowing relief! Today, I'm haunted by that reality. Many people don't think of a dog as a pet/family member. I am a pet friendly/family thinking person. I don't get any other thoughts. I think that puppy millers and pet stores don't have any more regard to the lives they sell, but for the profit they make.

[torchsong]

Did the petstore that you bought your puppy from tell you about the genetically inherited diseases in the breed? Did they tell you that a responsible breeder tests for these diseases and makes their breeding decisions based on the results? Did the petstore tell you that the diseases in basenjis are mostly late onset so your health garuntees will be long expired before you dog shows any symptoms?

Ummm...yes, yes, and yes.

I knew what Fanconi was, but my wife didn't. The pet store owner was adamant that we both know about that and went into detail on it. They showed us the AKC papers and the lineage of the dog, where they got it, the phone number and address of the breeder, their names, etc. Finally, yes, they did talk about how most diseases will now show up until after we've had the dog for some time. There were no health "guarantees" with this purchase.

Like I said, my experience was nothing like what I've been hearing about on here, and I'm not trying to paint a picture that these guys are saints or anything. It just seemed that my experience seemed to fly in the face of everything I'd known before going in as well as what I'm reading now.

[lvoss]

Showing you names for where they got the dogs and a written pedigree tells you nothing about the health of those dogs. I am glad to hear that they did tell you about the diseases in the breed and that most likely it would be several years before you knew if your dog might be affected but I would not say from the information you have provided that they gave you anything that would allow you to make an assessment of the risk of your puppy. Did the pedigree show OFA numbers? CERF numbers? Strip Test information? Did they tell you the cost of treatment if your dog was later diagnosed with any of the inherited diseases?

Even if they told you about these things, did they also tell you about puppy developmental stages? Did they say how critical socialization, handling, and time with dam and littermates is? Most puppies in the petstore sell best at a time when they really should still be with their dam and siblings learning bite inhibition and proper dog language.

How about if you can not keep the dog at some time in the future? What responsibility is the petstore willing to take? Are they going to take it back and see that it is rehomed? Will it end up in a shelter or rescue? If so will they donate the money to pay for it to be rehomed? That is part of being responsible also. Making sure every puppy you produce has a home for life and being responsible for rehoming it if the home doesn't work out.

I have never seen a petstore that can meet the criteria for Responsible Breeder because they either do not have or will not give full health information for the parents and grandparents of the dogs, they will not take responsibility for adult dogs that are given up when they are no longer wanted, and they can not meet the socialization requirements for best raising puppies. This does not mean that some do not do better than others but they are not and can not meet the requirements for responsible.

[ChaseandZahrasmom]

There were two Basenji puppies one Red and White and one Tri at the petstore at the mall when I was there today. :(

All I could think was where are these babies going to end up? Why am I even looking at them? How can I pass Basenji information on to people who might buy them? Is there a flyer for BRAT?

[tanza]

There were two Basenji puppies one Red and White and one Tri at the petstore at the mall when I was there today. :(

All I could think was where are these babies going to end up? Why am I even looking at them? How can I pass Basenji information on to people who might buy them? Is there a flyer for BRAT?

Why don't you contact your local Basenji club? They might have information that you can leave at the store for anyone buying the pups.... or maybe one of the members can drop off information about Basenjis...

How much were they selling them for?

[ChaseandZahrasmom]

How much were they selling them for?

I just called they are selling them for $965, they were born 8/15/07 and are brother and sister.

[tanza]

I just called they are selling them for $965, they were born 8/15/07 and are brother and sister.

Gezz... even for California that is high... especially for pet store, puppy mill puppies... makes responsible breeders "cringe".....

[JazzysMom]

Gezz... even for California that is high... especially for pet store, puppy mill puppies... makes responsible breeders "cringe".....

So, what would be the going rate in California.

From breeders in WA, I *think* the going rate is in the neighborhood of $900.

I have no idea what a pet store would charge..

[youngandtired]

I got my furbaby from the mall and she cost me $1,200 and I am so glad I got her. If I had not been there I would have not gotten to know this breed. I know pet stores are not the place to get a pup, but I didn't know then about puppy mills. The fact remains that I got introduced to this wonderful breed through a pet store and I sure am glad I did.

[tanza]

I got my furbaby from the mall and she cost me $1,200 and I am so glad I got her. If I had not been there I would have not gotten to know this breed. I know pet stores are not the place to get a pup, but I didn't know then about puppy mills. The fact remains that I got introduced to this wonderful breed through a pet store and I sure am glad I did.

I am glad that you gave your B a great home (and the next comments are meant in general, not direct at you personally), but still each pup sold from a pet store means another will show up..... and it still begs the question that people need to really reseach getting a family companion, people research for a car more then a living animal... it should not be by walking into a pet store and deciding that day to buy a dog....

[ChristyRutherford]

There were two Basenji puppies one Red and White and one Tri at the petstore at the mall when I was there today. :(

All I could think was where are these babies going to end up? Why am I even looking at them? How can I pass Basenji information on to people who might buy them? Is there a flyer for BRAT?
Oh, I feel the same way. I feel so sorry for the puppies in there. But in reality we should be feeling sorrier for the parents of these puppies. No one, hardly, ever thinks about them.
I helped with a BUR run when a puppymill was shut down in MO. The pups were adorable, friendly and playful and young enough to eventually be socialized and a happy member of a family (but who knows about health and temperment--so not saying they are not little victems too).
But the poor momma had lived her whole life never knowing the comfort of a bed, the softness of grass, the fun of running full speed doing the B500, she knew nothing more than the wire cage she had spent her whole life in. She seemed scared of the grass when we took her out for a potty break. I just kept thinking of how spoiled my B boy and how he loves to lay around in my warm bed and chew on his rawhide and how he gets a special treat before bedtime. He has no worries.
Not to take the focus from the puppies, I think petstores should not sell puppies and puppy millers should be shut down...but after seeing poor Lady ;I have a different perspective on petstore puppies that I think many choose to overlook or just dont think about.

[dash]

There was a video on CNN about puppy mills. I thought I would add it to this thread. I put the link in the title that is where I got it from if anyone would like to read it.



Virginia: The Next Puppy Mill State?


November 1, 2007

Virginia—a state dotted with historic towns, scenic byways ... and horrible puppy mills.

A five-month, undercover investigation by The HSUS revealed a substantial Virginia puppy mill industry that is largely unregulated and often in violation of state and federal laws.




Hidden Cruelty

From large-scale operations with hundreds of dogs living in seemingly endless rows of cages; to small, crowded kennels in trailers, backyards and even basements across Virginia; hundreds of commercial breeders are mass-producing dogs with little or no oversight and few—if any—safeguards for the health and well-being of the animals.

HSUS investigators visited puppy mills of all sizes, as well as pet stores and Virginia-based websites selling dogs. Their discoveries were staggering.

Commercial dog breeders in Virginia number nearly 1,000. And many of these operations churn out puppies in the most deplorable conditions imaginable.


The HSUS
Yorkies in a Va. pet store that buys from unlicensed puppy mills.
Denying Basic Needs

Like many states, Virginia has no kennel inspection program to ensure that dog breeders meet basic standards of animal care. HSUS investigators visited mills and pet stores across the state and found that even the most minimal state laws for adequate care and shelter were ignored.

Investigators found breeding dogs and puppies living in cramped, filthy cages, in urine-soaked trailers and in ramshackle kennels without basic sanitation, clean water, veterinary care or even the most primitive protection from the elements.

How You Can Help

Take the pledge to stop puppy mills.


Learn more and join The HSUS in our work to help stop the systematic abuse of dogs in puppy mills.

Learn more about how to avoid buying a puppy mill dog.

Buying a puppy? Check out our puppy buyers guide.

Want to adopt? Visit Proud 2 Adopt.

Flouting the Law

Some breeders were also breaking federal laws. To sell puppies to pet stores, facilities with more than three breeding females are required to have a license from the United States Department of Agriculture.

In Virginia, only a handful of dog breeders hold a USDA license; many of the unlicensed sell to pet stores, anyway.

Others bypassed pet stores altogether and sold directly to the public though classified ads and the Internet, where breeders are not required to have a license and can operate without any oversight whatsoever.

A Sick Business

All this out-of-control breeding has other consequences. Consumers find the market flooded with sickly puppies. Many buy a puppy who seems healthy, only to find out weeks or months later that their new pet has serious health problems.

And Virginia's puppy mills significantly contribute to the state's pet overpopulation crisis: last year, shelters in Virginia had to euthanize more than 42,000 dogs for lack of homes.

In Bad Company

Unless Virginia does something fast, it is destined to be known as the next puppy mill state. The HSUS urges legislators to require higher standards for breeding kennels within the state, as Virginia's puppy mill problem only accelerates a nation-wide epidemic.

Puppy mills all over the country are producing dogs much like Virginia—under the radar and out of sight. Legislators in all states can help stem this cruelty by requiring large-scale breeders to be licensed, inspected, and held to high standards.

What You Can Do

Meanwhile, The HSUS urges dog lovers everywhere to become part of the solution.

Perform your own inspection of any breeder from whom you are considering buying a pet. Pet stores love to tout that they buy only from "local breeders"—wooing potential spenders into thinking the pups came from a good situation. But "local breeders" can and often are local puppy mills.


Help stamp out the puppy mill trade entirely by choosing to adopt your next pet from a shelter or rescue group instead. There are millions of lovable animals across the country in need of a good home.

[elena86]

You have to understand...HSUS is NOT the same as the Humane Society or ASPCA. HSUS is code name for PETA. These people are such hypocrites! A couple of years ago, the PETA chapter in Norfolk, VA got caught red-handed for disposing of THOUSANDS of euthanized dog and car carcasses into the dumpsters behind a local Piggly Wiggly supermarket. People thought they were bringing in stray dogs and cats to be rescued. Instead, these animals were systematically put to death.

[sharronhurlbut]

I have gone into a petshop and talked to the manager...
*this is when they had a basenji for sale*.
I wrote up all sort of info re the local basenji club, basenji health info, my contact info...a nice little handout.
I asked the owner if I could leave it with them to give to the new basenji owners.
I was polite, tried to be kind, and cried all the way home from that place.
The new owners did contact me and I did help them with some behavior issues they were having.
I also talked them info having her fixed.
It was not ideal, but it was what I did.
I so wish selling companion animals was not allowed buy these puppymill businesses.
Maybe if the states came up with some type of "lemon" law for these businesses that sell sick/defective dogs???

[Quercus]

I have gone into a petshop and talked to the manager...
*this is when they had a basenji for sale*.
I wrote up all sort of info re the local basenji club, basenji health info, my contact info...a nice little handout.
I asked the owner if I could leave it with them to give to the new basenji owners.
I was polite, tried to be kind, and cried all the way home from that place.
The new owners did contact me and I did help them with some behavior issues they were having.
I also talked them info having her fixed.
It was not ideal, but it was what I did.
I so wish selling companion animals was not allowed buy these puppymill businesses.
Maybe if the states came up with some type of "lemon" law for these businesses that sell sick/defective dogs???


I did the same thing, but I don't think the packet ever went home with the puppy because about three months after she was purchased the new owners contacted a local breeder because they came across her website. The dog wasn't working out for them, and they needed some help. The breeder took the dog, and she went into the BRAT system. The info that I originally left included information about where to turn for help, and community information out there, and BRAT info...

I do think it is still a worthwhile thing to do if there is a pet store near you selling Basenjis though. Every now and then, you might get an shop owner that will pass the info on, and you might get a puppy owner that uses the info.

[sharronhurlbut]

The good news for me is that this place has not had a basenji pup to sell since the one I saw.
But sadly, they always do have puppies to sell.

[Quercus]

The good news for me is that this place has not had a basenji pup to sell since the one I saw.
But sadly, they always do have puppies to sell.

Yes, our news was good as well...because that store never had another Basenji puppy (they had to drop her price WAY down to even sell her)..and then a few months after that they closed completely! YAY!

[tanza]

We are very thankful here in No. Cal that there are very, very few pet stores that sell puppies period....

[sharronhurlbut]

I think as more folks become educated, they learn that even if they did buy that "doggie in the window" there are better ways to find a healthy, happy companion animal.
We now have pet food stores that just sell food and supplies...no animals at all.
I hope it comes to that across the country, in our lifetime...

[senji]

We have several supply only stores here in PA as well. The bad thing is thats probably because pet stores can't compete with the puppy mills. A lot of them just sell the puppies in the paper not to pet stores. The one supply only store had a guinea pig rescue one time...we brought it home. They gave it to us..they knew we had others at home and we take good care of it. I try to go back there when possible. I feel like they're being responsible.

[dash]

You have to understand...HSUS is NOT the same as the Humane Society or ASPCA. HSUS is code name for PETA. These people are such hypocrites! A couple of years ago, the PETA chapter in Norfolk, VA got caught red-handed for disposing of THOUSANDS of euthanized dog and car carcasses into the dumpsters behind a local Piggly Wiggly supermarket. People thought they were bringing in stray dogs and cats to be rescued. Instead, these animals were systematically put to death.


Thanks for pointing that out. I think the message is the same though. I am not pro-PETA but I do think when they initially came into the public eye they had good intentions.

[ewarp]

You have to understand...HSUS is NOT the same as the Humane Society or ASPCA. HSUS is code name for PETA. These people are such hypocrites!


I'd really appreciate it if you could provide a little more info regarding this statement. As someone who previously worked for HSUS and now regularly works with them, I'm a bit offended and a little concerned that you would make such a bold statement.

I've seen nothing that would link these two separate groups together and I certainly haven't seen the HSUS taking part in the extreme tactics utilized by PETA.

[tkokick]

Hi all -

I am not a basenji owner, although my next door neighbor fostered and then adopted the most adorable one - named Joey!!!

I actually found your site by googling to find out what happens to unsold puppies at a petstore, and low an behold, I ended up here.

Anyway, I read through everything posted here, and saw that there were several people very concerned about the pet store experiences that they had (I believe one was Stella from Cleveland Heights) - so I googled to see if there was a place that would allow you to report the kind of hideous abuse she is talking about - 68 - 250 puppies dead in such a short time - heartbreaking.

AND - there is!!! Here's the link: http://www.petstoreabuse.com/cando.html

Please take the time to follow the steps to report problem petstores... it is one very strong thing we can do to stop these stores from continuing their horrible practices. No animal anywhere should ever have to suffer that treatment.

And please, please - send this link on to your animal-loving friends. I think so many of us want to do something, but don't know if there is anywhere that will listen - here is a place that WILL.

Thank you so much, and keep on loving your beautiful dogs!

:o) Tara