Backyard Breeding vs Responsible Breeding

[sharronhurlbut]

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This is a collection of discussions moved from other threads. Please use this thread for any future
discussions of backyard vs responsible breeding.

Basenji Forums Staff
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The problem is that these poorly bred dogs, well, we fall in love with them.
Its not like a sweater you take back if you find a flaw. You fall in love and then your hooked.
Bad breeders take your money and often break your hard, when you lose a dog early.
Medical issues can happen to any one or critter, but good breeders stack the deck in favor of the longed lived dog.
Really, isn't that what we all want, a dog not to die at 6, but to live to 15 or longer??
Knowledge is power with health issues, be it human or canine.
Good breeders give you that info and bad ones let you throw the dice.

[lvoss]

Just remember that although Phil is not the best parent of the dogs, he does raise good dogs, and they just need more TLC at the beginning than people who are always with the pups and socialize them often.
I am sorry but I have to disagree with this statement. At 16 weeks of age, the window for early socialization that a puppy needs in order to view changes in their surroundings and new people as OK is pretty much closed. With lots of work puppies that have been undersocialized during this period can become better but most will always have anxiety in new situations and meeting new people.

Most young dogs that are euthanized in shelters are euthanized because they were raised in exactly this way, with little or no socialization during the first 12-16 weeks of their lives. Many of these dogs suffer from fear and anxiety issues and to a degree that most people can not provide the care that the dog needs. These young dogs are then dumped in shelters and often fail their temperament tests because they are often resource gaurder, fear biters, and non-affliative with humans.

Doing this to a puppy is not breeding "good dogs". It is cruel.

[lvoss]

My post was harsh but it is also the truth. Sharron is right that it is heart breaking to see these dogs that are absolutely terrified of things that most dogs find comforting. We see these dogs at the shelter. Some have managed to pass their temperament test and make it to the adoption floor. Of those some are lucky enough to find homes with people who are truly wonderful for finding the room in their home and heart for these dogs. Unfortunately, I have also seen the ones that we haven't been able to help and my heart is broken for those young dogs who never had a chance because they were not raised with the love and caring that every puppy deserves.

[sharronhurlbut]

Not only do bad breeders not do right by the puppies, or the "owners" who buy them, but these bad breeders have the nerve to charge the same or *more* in pet shops, then the quality breeders who work their hearts out trying to make the breed better.
This is wrong on toast!

[etzbseder]

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.

[sharronhurlbut]

I don't know about "stealing the thread" but I can tell you I don't breed.
I only do rescue.

[tanza]

And while both posts and mine are "harsh" they speak the truth... period... responsible breeders condition their pups to be a part of the household.. they know what the TV is.. they know what cleaning the house is and can help...ggg much to our dismay....ggg.. (OK granted...99% of B's will attack the vaccuum...gggg I find it pretty amusing)... they love to have visitors... they are a part of the daily goings on.... and they have the help of the breeder when they hit the wall... they are assured of good health, but are made aware of the possible pit falls.. as until we have DNA for all health problems, responsible breeders test, test, test.... and breed to the best of their knowledge....

[tanza]

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.

Excuse me???? This is what we are talking about..... remember breeders breed to improve the breed and keep the best for themselves... and while it is pretty obvious that we can't keep them all, the most important thing after that is the home they go to.... many, many people are just wanting a loving family companion.. and that is what we can provide... IMO, you are well out of line... as if I remember correctly.. you want to breed your boy?

[etzbseder]

That's fair, but the breeders that test their breeding dogs galore, are GREAT but they shouldn't try to make the buyers of spayed/neutered PETS test their dogs for EVERYTHING all the time. My parents are not testing their mutt for ANYTHING because it doesn't change anything in the way the love and treat their dog that they can't figure out on their own without spending thousands of dollars to just wait and see if there is anything slowly going wrong with hips/eyes/ and the like. Their last dog was from a BYB (i know hisssss) but it lived to be 16 and died of old age and cancer. both would have been unavoidable.

[etzbseder]

Yes, Tanza, I have toyed with the idea of breeding, but even if I were to do it, it would not be until I have tested a ton. And that is one of the reasons I am only still toying with the idea of breeding. I can always turn back until i have gotten a desired female, done lots of tests and let them if they want to. Which would be at least two years away, because the female (i've read) should be at LEAST two years old.

[lvoss]

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.
I guess you don't get it, that is exactly what we are saying. Responsible breeders breed for themselves to have the next generation to continue with. Every litter that is bred for this purpose also has puppies that will not be breeding prospects but make AWESOME pets because they get the benefit of the health testing, socialization, and the time that a responsible breeder puts into each litter.

You obviously don't know a thing about the people who you are accusing of breeding pets to sell for over a thousand dollars. Sharron is a rescue coordinator who has time and time again asked people to adopt a rescue, foster a rescue, consider a shelter dog. Go look at my posts, I have said time and again either take the time to do your homework and buy from a responsible breeder or if you don't want to do your homework adopt a rescue or shelter dog. Take a look at Pat's posts they are all the same theme. You are the one jumping to conclusions.

[sharronhurlbut]

Not spay and neuter pets?
What are you saying, that "quality" breeders should sell their pet dogs to folks and let those people do whatever they want with the intact pet quality dogs???
So, any fool, who just wants a pet can put another pet with a dog and have a whole bunch of pets who might go to good home, or not??
Why if you want to see that kind of stupid, go down to any animal shelter and look at the puppies that are there.
Look at the dogs who have no homes and will be killed because there are too many of them.
Sigh
Quality breeders do right BY all their puppies, the show ones and the pet ones and they don't let their hard work fall into the hands of someone who thinks its wrong to spay a pet!

[lvoss]

That's fair, but the breeders that test their breeding dogs galore, are GREAT but they shouldn't try to make the buyers of spayed/neutered PETS test their dogs for EVERYTHING all the time. My parents are not testing their mutt for ANYTHING because it doesn't change anything in the way the love and treat their dog that they can't figure out on their own without spending thousands of dollars to just wait and see if there is anything slowly going wrong with hips/eyes/ and the like. Their last dog was from a BYB (i know hisssss) but it lived to be 16 and died of old age and cancer. both would have been unavoidable.

Asking people to have their pets tested using a DNA test so they KNOW whether they need to monitor their dog on a frequent basis for symptoms of a disease that they have inherited from their parents is not aksing them to spend thousands of dollars. It is asking them to do the test so they are prepared and can hopefully catch the disease early so maybe it doesn't cause so much damage to their kidneys that they go downhill quickly and if they are Affected that may end up costing them thousands of dollars which could have been prevented if the breeder had done the right thing and tested prior to breeding.

Telling pet owners that their regular vet can perform a patella examination during a regular office visit and they can have those results registered with OFA for $15 if normal and for free if they are abnormal is not asking for thousand of dollars. But again having that test done will provide them with information that could help them to prevent putting stress on those joints and perhaps avoid having to do surgery later in life.

Recommending that pet owners who wish to compete in performance events have hips x-rayed to make sure the stress of the athletic competition willl not be a problem for the dog is still not asking for thousands of dollars, x-rays run about $75-$125 dollars and are I think $35 to submit to OFA. It is also helping to ensure that a dog does not actually do damage to itself while doing something its instincts may drive it do to do in spite of the pain.

Telling buyers that they should include a thyroid panel as part of their yearly exams because hypothyroidism can cause temperament change, coat damage, joint damage, and other problems is good advice for any dog owner. Many hypothyroid dogs get dumped when what they really need is pill twice a day.

Having eyes checked once every couple of years to make sure your dog isn't losing its vision is still not recommending unneccessary testing. Many dogs can hide their vision loss until it is quite well progressed. Knowing your dog is going blind can help you to help it adjust.

I have plenty of friends and family who have mutts and have spent money to have these tests done. Often they have spent far more than I have in their vet bills because they didn't know what to test for and the didn't know there was a problem until there were significant symptoms.

[Quercus]

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.


WHAT? You just described exactly what we DO do! And breeding "just for pets" is exactly what your breeder does!? Maybe he doesn't charge over $1000...but he doesn't need to in order to cover his costs and make a profit. No health testing, no investment in quality food, and no investment in puppy socialization...he can afford to sell his pet puppies dirt cheap.

What is a 'breeding prospect predicted'? Most responsible breeders have a long list of buyers before they do a breeding. Is that what you are talking about?

Maybe you need to revisit what we have been saying all this time about what makes a responsible breeder....because you seem to have things confused.

[Vanessa]

Ok...Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.

[lvoss]

I am sorry that this thread took a turn away from the original poster's questions but I do think it is very important for people to understand the very serious consequences of lack of socialization in puppies.

Here is a link with several articles and suggested reading about puppy socialization.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/earlysocialization.html

[tanza]

Ok...Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.

While I understand your point, I feel that it is important that people understand why a BYB is not a responsible breeder and is pure for profit.

[Quercus]

Ok...Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.

Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should...if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.

[Vanessa]

Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should...if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.

I understand and thats why I interjected when I did. I knew it could get a little out of control. :o The majority of people in this forum take this very seriously and feelings can be hurt and we don't want that :o

[ComicDom1]

And while both posts and mine are "harsh" they speak the truth... period... responsible breeders condition their pups to be a part of the household..!

You can call yourself a responsible breeder and wave it like a flag, but the truth is, That you really have no idea what someone else's household is really like, unless you have lived with them for an extended period of time. So you really cannot condition a pups to be any part of a household other than your own. Routines are different, people are different, and methods are going to vary.

Also, while you can do all the testing in the world on new puppies and there parents, the truth is, that nothing can fully predict the health and temperament of any dog. You might be able to predict whether or not a Basenji will likely develop Fanconi based on genetic lines, but you cannot guarantee that a Basenji is totally healthy because they have too complex a system. Things can come up like viruses or cancer, that will affect the health of an animal that cannot be predicted.

Jason and Miranda

[ComicDom1]

Excuse me???? This is what we are talking about..... remember breeders breed to improve the breed and keep the best for themselves... and while it is pretty obvious that we can't keep them all, the most important thing after that is the home they go to.... many, many people are just wanting a loving family companion.. and that is what we can provide... IMO, you are well out of line... as if I remember correctly.. you want to breed your boy?


The question is, do you reach a point where you are not really improving the breed and reach a place where you are only attempting to further your own interests. Yes, many people just want a loving pet, but I think the point that is being made here is that because of the outrageous prices being charged, by so called responsible breeders, you are forcing people to the puppy mills, backyard breeders. It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.


Jason and Miranda

[Quercus]

<<So you really cannot condition a pups to be any part of a household other than your own. Routines are different, people are different, and methods are going to vary.>>

You think so? I don't know...I think the average dog is expected to have pretty much the same set of house expectations. Most people's homes have the same 'stuff' to which a puppy needs to be conditioned...ya know...TV, radios, people coming and going, furniture not to be chewed, dog toys to be chewed, usually a crate. Placement, timing and techniques may be different...but the more things a puppy is exposed to during 4-8 weeks, the more easily he will adapt to changes in the new household.

It isn't so much about exposing them to *everything they might encounter, but exposing them to lots of things so that their minds learn to adapt to change in general.

And, I don't think that anybody here said that they guarantee their puppies, or any certain breeder's puppies will be healthy for life? I think the general consensus is that responsible breeders test for everything that there is a test for, and them make the best decisions they can, and then hope for the best. And as far as temperament...no, no one can guarantee that...but responsible breeders will guarantee that they will take their dogs back if you, the buyer, become unhappy with the temperament EVEN if it was the buyers that damaged the puppy behaviorally.


<<You can call yourself a responsible breeder and wave it like a flag, but the truth is, >>

The truth *is, it doesn't matter what you call yourself in this instance...it is what other people call you. Your peers, your puppy buyers and your friends. Anybody can call themselves responsible...but actions speak much louder than words, as usual.

[ComicDom1]

While I understand your point, I feel that it is important that people understand why a BYB is not a responsible breeder and is pure for profit.


Just because they are a registered AKC breeder, does not mean they are responsible either! Puppy mills sell AKC registered Dogs daily.

Responsible has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. The AKC registration does not insure that any dog is healthy. I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!

Jason

[Quercus]

<< It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.>>

Why? Assumedly, rescue charges what it costs to vet, care for, and transport the dogs. That certainly costs a lot less than breeding,vetting, whelping and raising a litter. In some areas of the country pet dogs do cost about what BRAT charges for a young dog adoption. In some areas pets are more expensive, because EVERYTHING is more expensive.

Perhaps some buyers are being 'forced' to buy their puppies from BYBs (puppy mills sell to stores, which are more expensive than responsible breeders)....but again, I guess you get what you pay for. If you don't want to pay for health tested parents, then there are plenty of options out there to NOT do it...but people should be able to make an informed decision.

Example...I need to replace my van. I could buy a new Kia for about 2/3 the price (plus a FREE super compact car) of a new Honda. I know that the longevity/mileage/power/number of cup holders of the Honda is far superior to the Kia...but I can't afford a new Honda right now. So I have to decide if I want to buy the Kia, knowing I won't have it as long, and may have more repairs, or wait and save for the Honda. Or maybe I get lucky, buy the Kia, and it lasts forever! But I need to have as much info as possible to make a good decision.

We all make decisions about the bottom line, right? Nobody that I know in the BCOA is making money breeding Basenjis. Litters are small. We all spend far too much on health testing, and stud selection/transportation, and medical care for the dam for there to be any left over.

This has gotten long ;) and I am tired :)

[Quercus]

Just because they are a registered AKC breeder, does not mean they are responsible either! Puppy mills sell AKC registered Dogs daily.

Responsible has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. The AKC registration does not insure that any dog is healthy. I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!

Jason

Nobody said that AKC = responsible breeder (well, except maybe AKC)...you are preaching to the choir. Yes, responsible absolutely has to be a case by case basis. Not even within the BCOA would you find absolute agreement on who is a responsible breeder and who isn't.

It is pretty obvious that you are perceiving a holier than thou representation. That is too bad, because that is not the case. There is a wish from most of us that people would become educated about making the choice of adding a dog to their family. And however they decide to do it, breeder, rescue, shelter, whatever...that they would not put money into the pockets of people who broker dogs for money.

Those of us here, that you are judging do this for the love of the breed, period. We don't even do it for love of ribbons, or winning, or creating....and certainly not for money...I don't know what else to tell you....

[Vanessa]

The question is, do you reach a point where you are not really improving the breed and reach a place where you are only attempting to further your own interests. Yes, many people just want a loving pet, but I think the point that is being made here is that because of the outrageous prices being charged, by so called responsible breeders, you are forcing people to the puppy mills, backyard breeders. It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.


Jason and Miranda

Need I remind you that this is a non-confrontational forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to express themselves in a courteous and respective manner.
If you have not, than I suggest that you review the forum rules which I have provided in the link below.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374

[ComicDom1]

<<So you really cannot condition a pups to be any part of a household other than your own. Routines are different, people are different, and methods are going to vary.>>

You think so? I don't know...I think the average dog is expected to have pretty much the same set of house expectations. Most people's homes have the same 'stuff' to which a puppy needs to be conditioned...ya know...TV, radios, people coming and going, furniture not to be chewed, dog toys to be chewed, usually a crate. Placement, timing and techniques may be different...but the more things a puppy is exposed to during 4-8 weeks, the more easily he will adapt to changes in the new household.

It isn't so much about exposing them to *everything they might encounter, but exposing them to lots of things so that their minds learn to adapt to change in general.



And, I don't think that anybody here said that they guarantee their puppies, or any certain breeder's puppies will be healthy for life? I think the general consensus is that responsible breeders test for everything that there is a test for, and them make the best decisions they can, and then hope for the best. And as far as temperament...no, no one can guarantee that...but responsible breeders will guarantee that they will take their dogs back if you, the buyer, become unhappy with the temperament EVEN if it was the buyers that damaged the puppy behaviorally.


<<You can call yourself a responsible breeder and wave it like a flag, but the truth is, >>

The truth *is, it doesn't matter what you call yourself in this instance...it is what other people call you. Your peers, your puppy buyers and your friends. Anybody can call themselves responsible...but actions speak much louder than words, as usual.

Thank you for your post. I can accept and live with everything you have said. A couple of reasons I consistently find your post easy to accept, is because it's apparent to me that you do it with class, and without arrogance.

Once again thank you for your post.

Jason

[ComicDom1]

Need I remind you that this is a non-confrontational forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to express themselves in a courteous and respective manner.
If you have not, than I suggest that you review the forum rules which I have provided in the link below.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374

If you can point out where we have not posted in a courteous and respectful manner, then we will be happy to deal with any consequences you think are fair.

As you pointed out earlier in this thread, the purpose of this site was to bring the Basenji community together. While we certainly can appreciate that purpose, as well as the exchange of information here, we personally have experienced this responsible breeder type attitude since we joined board. Maybe if you could do something to address that issue, the forum will be better off.

I do not think anyone likes being told they made a bad decision, or they bought the pet they love in the wrong place or from the wrong person. I also think that others beside myself and Miranda have and will take exception to being told that we feeding our pets inferior food. I think you will agree, that there are ways to present information on any forum, without coming off as arrogant or in an authoritative manner.

Miranda and I think its great to inform others about Basenji health issues and current testing that is available, but do you think people have to be beat over the head with it in every situation. I think you are probably intelligent enough to figure out whom we are referring to. To be honest, if that person is allowed to continue in similar fashion, then fear not, because the issue will solve itself.

We certainly invite you to email us to discuss this further.
ComicDom1@aol.com
Jason and Miranda

[ComicDom1]

<< It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.>>

Why? Assumedly, rescue charges what it costs to vet, care for, and transport the dogs. That certainly costs a lot less than breeding,vetting, whelping and raising a litter. In some areas of the country pet dogs do cost about what BRAT charges for a young dog adoption. In some areas pets are more expensive, because EVERYTHING is more expensive.

While we do not disagree with the cost variance of the two different operations, it does make you wonder how many breeders would be willing to provide a line item cost accounting to any perspective buyer to justify the price they charge.

It also makes us wonder, if finishing a Basenji Pup to Championship Status was not so important to many who breed them,(...ego...status...)as well as the ability to advertise that the new born pups available were from champion bloodlines, we wonder how that would affect how many were bred. We will certainly celebrate the day when organizations like the AKC start requiring total health histories of every bloodline and breed that it recognizes.

While we know we are going to be accused to preaching to the choir, the real tragedy of course is the abuse of any animal of any breed or species.

Jason and Miranda

[lvoss]

I hope this is considered appropriate by the moderators but seems to be a part of the forum rules that really needed a bit of highlighting.


COURTESY AND RESPECT

The purpose of this board is to provide a place for Basenji owners to make connections, exchange information and assist and encourage one another. It is above all a friendly environment for online discussion.

Don't be rude to others, or make an argument personal
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all
Know the difference between a difference of opinion and a personal attack
Don't try to "win" an argument by repeating yourself over and over
Don't tell others what to post
Keep it clean, don't use profanity

[lvoss]

While we do not disagree with the cost variance of the two different operations, it does make you wonder how many breeders would be willing to provide a line item cost accounting to any perspective buyer to justify the price they charge.

I think that most responsible breeders are willing to do this and have done this for perspective buyers. I know that at least one breeder took the time to do this and post it to the web as an example of what it costs to responsibly breed a litter, http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/Prices.htm Many here also encourage anyone who is considering purchasing a puppy to discuss with the breeder what testing they are doing, how they raise their pups, and the basics of what they are really getting for their money. Again the desire if for perspective puppy buyers to make informed decisions.

It also makes us wonder, if finishing a Basenji Pup to Championship Status was not so important to many who breed them,(...ego...status...)as well as the ability to advertise that the new born pups available were from champion bloodlines, we wonder how that would affect how many were bred. We will certainly celebrate the day when organizations like the AKC start requiring total health histories of every bloodline and breed that it recognizes.
I visit a lot of basenji websites and have to say that the breeders that I consider responsible are do not use "champion bloodlines" as a selling point. This isn't to say that they do not brag about their champions and they do have their dogs on their websites with the full names including titles but their reasons for selecting the sire and dam of a litter are really about the qualities of the dogs and not just the titles they have earned. Most of the small blurbs on the litter are fairly well balanced in describing health, temperament, and conformation/performance traits that they are hoping for in the litter.

[JazzysMom]

Sometimes it's best to just walk away quietly . . . .

[Janneke]

Dear Jason and Miranda,

I kinda get the idea you are only here to attack people (breeders?) on their opinion.

We are all on this forum to help each other. Of course this is also a place to start a discusion, but this feels more like an attack (on Tanza?)

When you feel that responsible breeder aren't responsible (enough), I invite you to start a threat about it. This is a threat about puppy agression.

Now I'm walking away quietly..

[Quercus]

<<I visit a lot of basenji websites and have to say that the breeders that I consider responsible are do not use "champion bloodlines" as a selling point. >>

I agree Lisa. I don't think I have seen or heard a BCOA breeder ever use that phrase. Honestly it kind of goes with the territory for carefully planned litters. "Champion bloodlines" in a advertisement is a red flag for me. That is playing to a buyer's desire to have a "champion" dog,or the "best" dog. An educated buyer wouldn't be fooled by that phrase. An educated buyer will be more impressed with "Parents fully tested for genetic disease"...or "Dog may be returned to me for any reason, for the rest of its life"

[Quercus]

Thank you for your post. I can accept and live with everything you have said. A couple of reasons I consistently find your post easy to accept, is because it's apparent to me that you do it with class, and without arrogance.

Once again thank you for your post.

Jason

Thank you for the compliment, Jason. But, in reality, I am saying pretty much the same thing as the other breeders on this forum. You may like my approach better...but the sentiment is the same.

I suggest that if you don't like the tone with which someone posts, ignore it. That is what I try to do :) Obviously, just like in real life, not everyone 'clicks'.

And again, the reason that it may see like we harp on the importance of finding a good breeder, is that we want people to be happy and satisified with their pets for the dog's whole life...we don't want to see more dogs coming into rescue, or being indiscriminantly bred, or being abused/neglected. We can reach a lot of people on a forum like this, so we repeat the message over and over. And I can promise you that we feel buyer education is the key.

[Ninabeana26]

Dear Jason and Miranda,

I kinda get the idea you are only here to attack people (breeders?) on their opinion.

We are all on this forum to help each other. Of course this is also a place to start a discusion, but this feels more like an attack (on Tanza?)

When you feel that responsible breeder aren't responsible (enough), I invite you to start a threat about it. This is a threat about puppy agression.

Now I'm walking away quietly..

I agree! All of your posts have been a bit on the attacking or overly defensive side. There is no need to get so defensive & honestly, just plain rude IMO. Although your posts have been fairly eloquent with the language/grammar, they come off as mean just the same. You are criticizing individuals that I don't think deserve it one bit for trying to share important information re our beloved breed. I can say from my own experience, that had it not been for this forum [& particular members] I wouldn't know even half of the information I now do about our breed & I probably would not have found such a great breeder like I did. Although, you know, I also agree that sometimes it is best to just walk away...

[ComicDom1]

Miranda and I have not attacked anyone verbally, but thats ok. When we first joined, we upset someone because we challenged information that was presented in correctly. Now that we are voicing our opinions as many others have done here, we are being taken to task for it.

We will do what we should have done when all this crap was started in post we put up for introduction. We will seek information elsewhere. Good luck with your forum. Maybe the next person that joins will be more receptive about being taken to task in regard to the food they choose to feed, choice of breeder, heath testing, and how, when and where, their new puppies should be socialized.

Jason and Miranda

[ComicDom1]

I think that most responsible breeders are willing to do this and have done this for perspective buyers. I know that at least one breeder took the time to do this and post it to the web as an example of what it costs to responsibly breed a litter, http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/Prices.htm Many here also encourage anyone who is considering purchasing a puppy to discuss with the breeder what testing they are doing, how they raise their pups, and the basics of what they are really getting for their money. Again the desire if for perspective puppy buyers to make informed decisions.


I visit a lot of basenji websites and have to say that the breeders that I consider responsible are do not use "champion bloodlines" as a selling point. This isn't to say that they do not brag about their champions and they do have their dogs on their websites with the full names including titles but their reasons for selecting the sire and dam of a litter are really about the qualities of the dogs and not just the titles they have earned. Most of the small blurbs on the litter are fairly well balanced in describing health, temperament, and conformation/performance traits that they are hoping for in the litter.

Read the second link down

http://www.breedersclub.net/html/breeds/basenji.htm

[JazzysMom]

Miranda and I have not attacked anyone verbally, but thats ok. When we first joined, we upset someone because we challenged information that was presented in correctly. Now that we are voicing our opinions as many others have done here, we are being taken to task for it.

We will do what we should have done when all this crap was started in post we put up for introduction. We will seek information elsewhere. Good luck with your forum. Maybe the next person that joins will be more receptive about being taken to task in regard to the food they choose to feed, choice of breeder, heath testing, and how, when and where, their new puppies should be socialized.

Jason and Miranda

I think you may be sorry that you are giving up on a source of valuable information because you don't like the way one person expresses her thoughts.
It DID seem as if that first post set you on your ear, and after that, had Tanza said "the sky is blue" you would have felt it necessary to reply, "That is your opinion. I believe the sky is azure.". May not have been your attempt, but it is how many posts were perceived by many here.

As you move on in your journey with this interesting and atypical breed, you may well wish you'd stuck around to garner what valuable insights this forum has to offer.

Best of luck,

[Quercus]

Read the second link down

http://www.breedersclub.net/html/breeds/basenji.htm

Okay??? My red flag is up.

Try this site http://basenji.org/?q=node/30

[lvoss]

Read the second link down

http://www.breedersclub.net/html/breeds/basenji.htm

I am not exactly sure what your point is with this link.

[JazzysMom]

Read the second link down

http://www.breedersclub.net/html/breeds/basenji.htm


I don't get the point here.

Because one person does it.....or because 100 people do it...doesn't make it the norm or the correct. Nor does being listed on a page of breeders necessarily make one a responsible breeder.

And if you do visit the website of Mountain dogs {the second link on that page} there is NO mention of health testing for any of the dogs........

[agilebasenji]

The link to the Mountain Basenji website show *six* different basenji litters in Dec of 2007. And nothing on the health testing or pedigrees. :confused:

[mauigirl]

I was definitely told to avoid that breeder. Good advice.
Does anyone else think some of B's on the website have huge ears?

[tanza]

I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!

Jason

If by "holier than thou" means that a responisble breeder:
1. Does not breed without having DNA tests for Fanconi
2. OFA's hips and elbows for Dysplasia, patellas checked - before breeding
3. Has Board Certified Eye exams - before breeding (and these three are just at a minimum for testing and certainly others if there is any questions about possible health concerns in any siblings/offsping of the sire and dam)
4. Has Board Certified Eye exams before placing puppies
5. Has well socialized pups and doesn't breed dogs with poor temperaments and for that matter, poor conformation that will usually lead to health problems.
6. Places pups on a spay/neuter contract with limited registration, unless other arrangements are made in case there is interest in showing
7. Has a contract that states if the Basenji needs to be given up for any reason for its lifetime, it comes back to the breeder
8. Screens homes before placement
9. Typically has a waiting list for puppies before breeding
10. Has an active interest in at least the parent breed club and understands the health concerns in the breed
11. And has an idea of "what" the dogs they are considering breeding has to "offer" the Basenji Fancy, be it in the show ring, in a performance venue, or a loving family pet
And a host of others... then, well, yes.... that is how responsible breeders should and would want to be represented.

[nomrbddgs]

Oh, wait Pat you missed one more test-the Brucellosis test. It's not a holier than thou responsible breeder representation, it's wanting to do what's best for the dog and for the people who will own the dog. Oh, and by the way, we are not in it for the money like BYB.

[JazzysMom]

If by "holier than thou" means that a responisble breeder:
1. Does not breed without having DNA tests for Fanconi
2. OFA's hips and elbows for Dysplasia, patellas checked - before breeding
3. Has Board Certified Eye exams - before breeding (and these three are just at a minimum for testing and certainly others if there is any questions about possible health concerns in any siblings/offsping of the sire and dam)
4. Has Board Certified Eye exams before placing puppies
5. Has well socialized pups and doesn't breed dogs with poor temperaments and for that matter, poor conformation that will usually lead to health problems.
6. Places pups on a spay/neuter contract with limited registration, unless other arrangements are made in case there is interest in showing
7. Has a contract that states if the Basenji needs to be given up for any reason for its lifetime, it comes back to the breeder
8. Screens homes before placement
9. Typically has a waiting list for puppies before breeding
10. Has an active interest in at least the parent breed club and understands the health concerns in the breed
11. And has an idea of "what" the dogs they are considering breeding has to "offer" the Basenji Fancy, be it in the show ring, in a performance venue, or a loving family pet
And a host of others... then, well, yes.... that is how responsible breeders should and would want to be represented.

ALL good things to check on before purchasing your pup!

[nomrbddgs]

As for testing 'pets', this helps the breeder determine if their breeding is successful for what they hope to achieve. That is, if they want all probable clear for Fanconi, they need to test the pets as well as the "champions". Same goes for OFA's of hips/patellas/elbows and any other afflictions pertaining to the breed in question. This does not necessarily go for just Basenji's. I certainly don't intend to charge $1000 for pups and most people I know of don't. However, if you look at bulldogs for instance they need to charge that amount and more to cover the costs. Bulldogs need AI and C-sections ALL the time. But also, you need to look at different circumstances. If you cannot afford $1000 you also need to look at what you can offer a pet-and often a rescue is more than worth it to a pet person. We certainly need pet people, as breeders. But we also need to look at where we are going with the breed as well. By checking on references, and taking chances with some people both sides can learn a lot (meaning breeders and pet people). Some people have very good intentions but cannot fulfill them-from either side. I know this is long and rambling, but I hope people are looking at both sides.

[JazzysMom]

Even though both of my B's were purchased as pets, I greatly appreciate the testing that Bryan and Laurie do/did on their dogs, so that I know exactly what I got with my dogs -- or as exactly as is possible.

Makes perfect sense to me to test whether for pets, show, or breeding.

[myran]

Wouldn´t it be easier to have a breeders list that is set by the basenji club which you can´t get on to advertise your litter if you haven´t done all the tests that are regulated by the club and AKC.Ok I know you are a continent and not like our little country but arrange it state wise it would help newcomers so they could choose from accepted and vetted breeders.
But I do understand this couple a bit since they were welcomed with a torrent of questions instead of just saying hi welcome aboard and give them time to settle in and then ask questions if one felt it necessary to know all about them with a bit more subtle mannerism.Maybe i´m wrong but reading all the posts it felt that they were bulldozed/ given the third degree ;)

[lvoss]

If you look at most of the welcome threads. There is usually a lot of welcomes and pretty quick the question, whose your pup's breeder? or where did you get your pup? comes up. These questions really aren't the "third degree", they are natural human curiosity. Many on this list have found that they are "related" and like to know those connections.

The question about "Were the parents tested?", comes up pretty quickly too since it is something that everyone needs to know about. Many on this list who have been in the breed for awhile, know people who have lost dogs to this disease. It is a subject they feel strongly about. It is also a health issue that all breeders can prevent by testing and making good breeding choices. We are not that lucky with other diseases where you have to do the testing, hope that other people will do testing so you can build vertical pedigrees and then at the end of the day make your best educated guess.

So though it may seem like it was a barrage, many other welcomes have included very similar questions and have not generated the hostility that occurred in this case.

[Jylly18]

I totally agree with you, Ivoss, but like the post before yours, I do agree with them as well. I know that in writing it is hard to convey emotion, but I do think that some of us could work a little harder at how things are worded, and remember that not everyone is a basenji expert right off the bat.
For example, when we got our basenji we got her from a rescue organization, and I have to admit, I knew nothing about Fanconi, glucose strip testing, basenji breeders, etc. I did not even know much about how to care for dogs, as this was my first up-close experience with them.
I just went back into my earliest posts and I am happy with the fact that everyone welcomed me very nicely and was very reassuring and helpful when it came to answering my questions, some of which were pretty dumb...looking back its amazing to see how much I have learned about basenjis and how to care for them...seems I was rather careless in the beginning :)
Anyway, my point is, I came to love this forum because when I did ask a question that wasn't the brightest, instead of making me feel dumb and uneducated, people responded very kindly and made me feel more confident and comfortable with my situation. Only from reading more on this board, did I eventually come to learn about Fanconi and other health issues, and I must say, I am glad I was not bombarded with these things right away.
Being a first time dog owner, had someone gone right into throwing questions at me like are you glucose testing, did your dogs sire/dam get tested for Fanconi, etc. I would have been extremely overwhelmed and agitated, wondering what I had gotten myself into, and feeling like a horrible dog parent for not knowing these things.
I do feel like lately attitudes towards new people have changed, and while I do feel that some people may be a little over-defensive, I can see their point of view. I know sometimes in the past I have felt bad for people who ask an innocent question and get bombarded with all these things, and end up feeling bad...for example I remember recently reading someone who introduced themselves and later I saw them put something like "I was beginning to think I was doing everything wrong." (I tried to find the exact quote but could not find it in the search, I do know it was recent though).
Do I think anyone is doing this intentionally? Of course not.
I really, truly believe everyone's intentions are good, and I understand that some are very passionate about issues like Fanconi, breeding, etc. I think these people are very bright and I am glad they are kind enough to volunteer their time to help others and share their vast knowledge. However, I do hope that maybe this opens their eyes a little bit to how their tone comes off. I have been put off by things like that for quite awhile, and although I am not happy about the hostility that occured here, I am glad the issue got brought up. Obviously there are more people who feel this way, considering the message that was brought up by the moderators in the Forum Help section. I am not sure what the behind the scenes stuff is in this case, and I dont' know if its related to this thread or not, but I do think this comment sums it up perfectly:
"Members have expressed on numerous occasions that they feel as though they have to meet a certain standard in order to join our community."
I hope things get better. I am so happy to have found this forum, and the friendly, knowledgeable people who are on it, and I just hope new members can have the same positive experience that I have had when joining.

[myran]

I agree with you Ivoss completely but I also agree with Jylly 18 not everybody has a clue when they buy a pet or take on a rescue dog.I always felt welcomed on this forum but I do agree with Jylly that when you are newbie and just want to present yourself and almost immediately someone throws the question about Fanconi it´s a bit overwhelming.
Ok so i´m not american and our country is small and all breeders in the basenji club know each other or atleast know about each other.And a kennel can´t get their pup´s on the puppy list if they haven´t tested their dog´s according to the regulations.
And yes testing is of utmost importance I will test m boy in a few weeks and give blood to the CPP his parents are both clear but I still test him aswell as check his eye´s and hip´s including T4,TSH and TgAA as he´s to be a studdog.So yes Ivoss health is important.
But as Jylly said sometimes even when people don´t mean to they come out sounding a bit harsh over the internet.Maybe wiser to ask casually from which breeder and the names of it´s parents and if one then recognises these dog´s as untested one´s then tell the newbie that we have this disease called Fanconi and explain what it does and ask them to test their dog just to be on the safe side.This way you educate them and hopefully get them to test their dog without scaring them away or becoming hostile.
Just a thought ;)

[lvoss]

Except that since there are many people reading and posting to this forum, sometimes simultaneously so they don't even know what someone else is writing, there will be times when it will look to a newcomer as they are being bombarded. It is really important that anyone who uses any forum of this type understand that multiple posts saying just about the same thing doesn't mean they are being ganged up on, it is a result of this type of communication.

Another aspect of Forums such as this, is that for some they may feel that they have waited an eternity for a response from someone where another person who logs on less frequently may think everything is flowing quite fast. So it is possible that some members think that they have "waited" before asking questions about health.

It is also important for all of us to remember that this is an international forum and that things are not the same in all places. Even being sensitive to all these things there are some people who will take anything you say, the wrong way.

I have had this happen to me when I have written responses to emails that I get that literally say just "How much are your puppies? When will you be able to ship me one?" They don't sign the email, have no information about where they are and they usually use phrases like "high and mighty" or "holier than thou" when I have sent a reply along the lines of "Thank you for your interest in basenjis. In order to help you locate a breeder in your area that may have puppies please let me know where you are located and what attracted you to the breed."

[dash]

I just stumbled on this post and you may have this already and I didn't see it. Would it be possible to make a sticky on how to buy from a responsible breeder, that includes all the health testing information? That way anyone could just refer the newcomer to that sticky or they could read it themself. That way they don't feel bombarded with questions they may not know anything about but can ask if they are interested.

[sharronhurlbut]

What a great suggestion!
I don't know what a sticky is, but I am sure some of these folks here do.

[tanza]

I believe that the Forum owners were going to do that.. there is a link on the Basenji Club of America site on how to find a responsible breeder at www.basenji.org/learn then go to screening breeders. And there are a number of websites from responsible breeders....

[dash]

I believe that the Forum owners were going to do that.. there is a link on the Basenji Club of America site on how to find a responsible breeder at www.basenji.org/learn then go to screening breeders. And there are a number of websites from responsible breeders....


I realize there are other places to get the info but since this thread seemed to have people feeling they were being bombarded with questions about testing, breeders etc. when they first joined if we just said "please check the link on responsible breeding for testing issues..." Or something that would relieve anyone from being made to feel uncomfortable. Does that make sense?

[sharronhurlbut]

The list owners did something similar under the rescue and rehoming section of this forum.
It is the very first thing a new person (or person first visiting the site sees).
Possibly, they could do it here and it would help inform.

[Alex]

Great Ideas! We will create a sticky series called "How To:" with some basic information and pointers. Members can add to them as needed.

The first one will be called "How To: Select a responsible breeder". It will go under "Breeder Talk" and and "For Sale" topics.

Thank you for all the great suggestions and feedback!

[tanza]

Great Ideas! We will create a sticky series called "How To:" with some basic information and pointers. Members can add to them as needed.

The first one will be called "How To: Select a responsible breeder". It will go under "Breeder Talk" and and "For Sale" topics.

Thank you for all the great suggestions and feedback!

It would be good to have one under health also

[lvoss]

Perhaps under health it should be What Are: Basenji Health Concerns