The Cost of Raising A Litter

[lvoss]

Since it is that time of year again, puppy season, and since I am breeding a litter this year, I thought that I would start a running tally of the expenses of breeding a litter.

To catch everyone up on the costs so far.

Health testing for 1 parent:

OFA Hip x-rays $75 + $30 OFA fee
OFA Patella Check $10 + $15 OFA fee
OFA Thyroid Panel $81 + $15 OFA fee
Fanconi Marker Test $60
CERF Exam $35 + $12 CERF fee for first time registration

Total for health testing 1 parent = $333
Usually you only have to pay for the health testing of the dog they own some of these tests do need to be repeated through out life but I am not going to throw those costs in.

Shipping costs for getting the girl here

Health Certificate $54
Shipping Cost $219.48

Total Cost $273.48

Cost of semen retrieval and transport $95

Progesterone Testing Costs $75/test x 4 tests = $300

So as of today I have a total of $1111.48

Will update tomorrow after I get the insemination bill.

[EskiLovr]

Why is the expense for artificial insemination necessary. I have never quite understood this. Are both the dogs not going to be in the same place? If that is the case what's with the transportation costs?

I am aware of the benefit of A.I. for cows, where you can inseminate an entire herd of cows from a single bull (having the bull doing this himself would be exhaustive.) Someone please educate me, since I've never been involved in the breeding of dogs. It just seems like it is awfully expensive, to go that route, and I am not sure what the benefit would be.

[tanza]

Why is the expense for artificial insemination necessary. I have never quite understood this. Are both the dogs not going to be in the same place? If that is the case what's with the transportation costs?

I am aware of the benefit of A.I. for cows, where you can inseminate an entire herd of cows from a single bull (having the bull doing this himself would be exhaustive.) Someone please educate me, since I've never been involved in the breeding of dogs. It just seems like it is awfully expensive, to go that route, and I am not sure what the benefit would be.

Well, in this case, Nicky was collected and then neutered. Since we have the ability to collect and store frozen for use later, it gave the opportunity for lvoss to still be able to use him as a sire, but be able to neuter him. Makes for a happier, healthier dog to be able to neuter.... So the transportation costs would be to have the frozen shipped to the Vet that will be doing the procedure.
Another benefit is that you can wait until the dog ages... as in we have late onset genetic concerns in Basenjis.. since things like Fanconi (the test was not available until 2007) and PRA (eye problem that causes blindness) are late onset. So the older the male is, the more likely you can look at their long term health without having to keep them intact.

[tanza]

For the litter I am breeding this Fall my costs so also my pups are $950.00 with a 100.00 refund with proof of spay/neuter (intact show prospects are the same price $950.00 but have a different contract). Also, my contact says that if for any reason you have to give up your Basenjis for its entire lifetime, it comes back to me.

Health Testing for 1 parent:
Hips, Elbows - X-rays $200.00 - OFA fee $40.00 (for hips and elbows together)
Patella - $15.00 and $15.00 OFA fee
Fanconi Marker - $60.00
CERF Exam - $35.00 and $15 for OFA registration
Thyroid Test - $100.00 and $15 OFA fee

Total: 495.00 - 1 parent health testing

Forgot to add DNA AKC parentage testing: $40.00

New Total $535.00

We will have in addition, stud fee shipping and/or traveling costs to take the bitch to the stud when she comes in season. Sometimes there is an agreement that instead of a stud fee, the stud owner gets a puppy back from the litter, so if you just use the puppy price that would be $850. Progesterone Testing so we know when the best time to bred will be.

[EskiLovr]

Thanks for taking the time to explain that. It makes perfect sense to me now. I understand how much better it is to neuter for the health and happiness of the dog, as a pet and companion. Too bad that you cannot collect, neuter and still conformation show, with certification of proper testicular development from a vet. That would really be best for the male overall.

[tanza]

Thanks for taking the time to explain that. It makes perfect sense to me now. I understand how much better it is to neuter for the health and happiness of the dog, as a pet and companion. Too bad that you cannot collect, neuter and still conformation show, with certification of proper testicular development from a vet. That would really be best for the male overall.

Well, true, but most Basenjis are finished (conformation champion) by the time they are 3ish... so not too much of a hassle... and unless you are going to show your Basenjis on the National level as in what is called a Special going for Best of Breed and then Group and then Best In Show, normally 90% of the males could and should be neutered... IMO, especially with being able to collect them. And you can show them as a Vetern (over the age of 7) at specialty shows.
But I do think that as they have in Canada, we should have "altered" classes... I think that many more people would get interested in showing as a sport if they didn't have to worry about intact dogs/bitches.

[lvoss]

I had Nicky collected and neutered after he finished his conformation championship. It really does make life easier for all of us. Though he still gets "excited" during breeding season, he is not stressing himself out to the extent that he did when he was intact. Since we have two intact females in the house it really makes the month that they are in season easier. My dogs are all house dogs and pets first and foremost so we really do strive to keep their and our daily schedules as "normal" as possible.

As for the added expense, I went back and started to look at my costs when I did live cover breedings and they add up to almost the same sort of fees when you add in gas, hotel, etc. I did progesterone with both of those breedings to make sure when I drove down to the stud dogs the timing was right.

I did not add in the lease fee, it is just like the stud fee, the cost of a puppy. So that will be another $850 to the total I have going but I don't owe it until the pups are born.

So my total with the lease fee is so far $1961.48.

Keep in mind a typical litter is about 4-5 puppies and there is no garuntee that after I have spent all this money there will be any litter at all.

[lvoss]

I should also add, when I had Nicky collected, I had no idea at the time when I would breed him. I had been in the breed long enough at that point to realize that we were going to have a problem as a breed if dogs that came from long lived, healthy lines and had proved themselves in multiple venues were eliminated from the gene pool. So I had him collected because I wanted to the option to make a decision about using him when there was more information available to us. 3 years later, we got the marker test for Fanconi and I had him tested, and he is Probably Clear.

At 10 3/4 years old he is still coursing and racing, and he could probably do agility but I made the mistake of telling him when he finished his Rally Novice title that he was retired and only had to do what he wanted from now on and apparently what he wants is to do twice as many tunnels and no tire jumps which makes agility for anything more than fun a little difficult.

Now I have to finish this post because he is demanding my undivided attention.

[EskiLovr]

Tanza (and everyone else too, but specifically you, since you mentioned it)

I also do not understand why we do not have the ability to conformation show dogs with "limited" AKC registration (I cannot remember the abbreviation, maybe someone else can help.) These dogs can do rally, luring, etc, but not conformation. What's the deal there?

[tanza]

Tanza (and everyone else too, but specifically you, since you mentioned it)

I also do not understand why we do not have the ability to conformation show dogs with "limited" AKC registration (I cannot remember the abbreviation, maybe someone else can help.) These dogs can do rally, luring, etc, but not conformation. What's the deal there?

I think it was mainly due to breeding. Remember conformation shows are for judging "breeding" dogs. Limited registration means you can't breed and register an AKC litter. So in keeping with what conformation shows were designed to be, if the dog has a limited registration they can't be shown.

Sometimes, a dog with a limited registration might have a defect or health problem that would "preclude" them from being a good possible dog to breed.. So while the problem may not effect to overall health and life of the dog, it would be considered something that you would not want to continue as a genetic concern.

[lvoss]

The original purpose of conformation shows was to exhibit breeding stock. Since "limited registration" means the breeder has specifically designated that dog as "non breeding stock" because dogs with limited status can not have any offspring registered, the reasoning is that they should therefore also not be allowed to compete in conformation.

I think we are at a point right now where those of us who participate in purebred dog sports really need to get together as a group and decide what sort of events and services are important to us and then start submitting these to AKC with the backing of many people.

UKC which has been around for a long time and is also a legitimate though much less used registry in the US, does offer host clubs the option of having classes for altered dogs, and for puppies 4-6 months old. These dogs do not get championship points but do get to compete for best of breed puppy or best of breed altered, they also have group and BIS competition for these dogs. I have participated in 4 UKC shows over 1 weekend and really enjoyed them. I hope to do some more this fall and am seriously considering dual registering my litter because I enjoyed the UKC shows and think they are fun and good ring practice for my dogs. The UKC website is http://www.ukcdogs.com

[ComicDom1]

Since it is that time of year again, puppy season, and since I am breeding a litter this year, I thought that I would start a running tally of the expenses of breeding a litter.

To catch everyone up on the costs so far.

Health testing for 1 parent:

OFA Hip x-rays $75 + $30 OFA fee
OFA Patella Check $10 + $15 OFA fee
OFA Thyroid Panel $81 + $15 OFA fee
Fanconi Marker Test $60
CERF Exam $35 + $12 CERF fee for first time registration

Total for health testing 1 parent = $333
Usually you only have to pay for the health testing of the dog they own some of these tests do need to be repeated through out life but I am not going to throw those costs in.

Shipping costs for getting the girl here

Health Certificate $54
Shipping Cost $219.48

Total Cost $273.48

Cost of semen retrieval and transport $95

Progesterone Testing Costs $75/test x 4 tests = $300

So as of today I have a total of $1111.48

Will update tomorrow after I get the insemination bill.

Ivoss I think you left out the cost of the vet bill for collecting the blood or shipping the blood sample to University of Missouri for the Fanconi test! I also think you left out the value of your time or hours spent getting everything done, and the cost of transporting the animal to the vet for the different tests and certifications. Of course since you have collected your basenji, I do not know if how you would factor in the housing, regular maintenance and feeding of your basenji. Maybe you can keep some kind of record of what it does cost for housing, feeding, and other costs involved with the female that is on its way to you.

Jason

[lvoss]

I didn't include the blood draw and shipping costs because recently I have taken advantage of the free clinics offered by my local club. Nicky's blood draw cost was $5 and it was $75 for shipping but I did that 3 years ago so sort of just glossed over it.

I also didn't include semen collection fees and storage because I sort of just figure that those are mine to bear because it was something important for me. Collection fees for semen are $45 per breeding vial plus $60 a year for up to 30 vials.

I also don't tend to look at food expense though it is definately an added cost to feed another animal but I also figure if I don't keep a tally of the money I spend feeding my 2 Bengal foster cats, why add do it for the cost of one more dog. Which I guess all kind of goes to say that even when you look at this running tally, there is more money going out but I just don't tally it because I guess I consider those "responsible owner costs" instead of "responsible breeder costs".

[tanza]

Base fees for ICSB (who are usually at dog shows) is a base of 295.00
http://www.ik9sb.com/Fees.asp

And when speaking of costs, remember the "human" time... especially since 99% of us work regular jobs...

[lvoss]

To add to my breeding expenses today we went in for a surgical insemination.

Costs:
$45 for semen preparation
$450 for surgical implantation
$90 for weekend/holiday service

Total $585 and anyone who knows anything about these services will tell you that is dirt cheap especially in California!

Add that to the running total and we are up to $2546.48 and still no way to know if we will actually have any pups.

[lvoss]

Update on costs. Today's ultrasound $148.75. And great news, it looks like at least 3 pups and maybe 4.

So the new total is $2695.21

[sharronhurlbut]

This shows the effort, time and cost that SHOULD go into breeding a quality basenji.
Its not just "putting" 2 dogs together...

[lvoss]

For anyone interested, here is a copy of the ultrasound.1832

[LiveWWSD]

Awesome, Thank you Lisa.

[sharronhurlbut]

Cool, thanks for sharing.

[Schouiffy]

awwwwesome. thanks for sharing the baby photos!

[Jarodkjv]

Congratulations! You were pretty excited before TC ever got there, so you must be REALLY excited now.

[Ninabeana26]

Thanks for sharing all of this great information! :) I am certainly grateful for breeders like you, Pat & Midge so that I can have my healthy perfect boy without having to do any of that work myself! I just don't know how you gals find the time!! :p

[lvoss]

We are very excited about our upcoming litter. Having a litter is a lot of work but there are also rewards including haveing a chance to get to know the new puppy owners.

[lvoss]

TC went in for a wellness check today. She needed to get her Heartworm prescription up to date, so the vet also did another ultrasound. The appointment added another $25 to the running total which now comes to $2720.21 and we got these really cool pics to show off. You can see spines on some of them now. I think one of the pics is actually a second one of the same puppy but my mom was a little unclear about the details.
1884

[etzbseder]

I love this tread. It is very informative, and a form of it should be turned into a sticky.

IVOSS: I think you may go over my original estimate of 3000 for a litter. Although I wouldn't include the fanconi test as part of it, because it is getting more common to have the test long before a possible breeding, and some breeders even are testing all the pups before selling them. (which is nice)

[tanza]

By the time you add in just the Vet fees after whelping, lvoss will be way over $3000

[mauigirl]

I also love this thread, very cool. Especially the baby pics. I know I"ll be thinking about more than just Halloween on Halloween. :) Are the pups homes all in CA, southern or northern or both? Man if I still lived in the Inland Empire I would very feebly ask if I can come over and help socialize.

But I'm lucky that I will get to do that here with yodeldog's litter :D :D :D
Can't wait for EVERYONE's puppy pictures! And it's going to be all around the same time too. Maybe we should make a special place for that on the forum...

[EskiLovr]

A new arrivals thread or topic heading would be cool!!

Good idea Mauigirl!!

[lvoss]

When it comes to homes, it sort of depends on what TC gives us but most of the litter will be in California, Southern and Northern. One may go to North Carolina.

We love having people come over to help socialize puppies. My mom is already asking people to come over and play with puppies when they are old enough. Me and my husband will be going down for both the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays so we can get in some time playing with the pups. Luckily on Thanksgiving weekend there is also some lure coursing and racing events down there so I can wear out my dogs and then head over for a puppy fix.

[mauigirl]

One may go to North Carolina.


One of these days we're going to drive to the Carolinas for coursing. Would be cool to meet the people behind Suddanly Basenjis and Jokuba Basenjis. Then we might get to meet TC too :)

[dmcarty]

I have a question here for those of you doing ultrasound and xrays on preggers moms. Are you doing it to: determine how many puppies, because you didn't think she was preggers, because you fear some crisis or ??????????

I can say only once has any animal (basenji) I owned been x-rayed and that was because of a singleton and we were not sure it was the only puppy. The bloodhounds different story because not being always the natural whelpers that B's are - it's important to know when you're done or to pinpoint some issues that might indicate C-section.

I have noted that vets are 'recommending' this now and trying to determine if it is for $ or if it has given some valid information?

[tanza]

I do ultrasound to know if preggers.... I like to be able to let my puppy people know we are really on our way and we should have puppies.... I don't go too much by the count with the ultrasound, depending on the Vet. I do xrays 3 days before the due date, cause I do want to know how many we will have.... Then if you have 4... and the bitch had 3 and seems to be stopping and its been awhile.... instead of "I guess she is done" you know there is still one there... and I can finalize to my puppy people exactly what we have as far as numbers and then if we will not have one for someone at the bottom of the list, we can refer them on.....

[lvoss]

I do the ultrasound to confirm pregnancy, like Pat I want to be able to tell my puppy buyers that there really are puppies expected. Also, it is nice to see that they are progressing normally. I don't normally do a second ultrasound but have found that both my mom's vet and mine will do them for free if we come in for something else just to satisfy their curiosity that the pregnancy is on track.

I do the x-ray to make sure that I know how many pups to expect, I want to know if I need to call the vet.

I know of one litter of Manchesters that may have been saved if the owner had done ultrasound or x-ray. All the pups were in one horn and the bitch's uterus twisted when she went into heavy labor because of the uneven distribution. If they had known before labor that the pups were so unevenly distributed they may have been able to save the pups by doing a c-section.

[dmcarty]

I agree that it is usefull for some reasons but have heard of some doing this so many times during the gestation that it seems a little excessive.

I had a friend who just had it done on her bitch (not a basenji) They said - oh yeah there is at least 4 and all looks fine. There were 3 - one was quite big, was breach and stuck and they lost that one - so in that case - not terribly medically helpful.

[lvoss]

How much information an ultrasound can give is highly dependent on the skill of operator. My vet looks for sacs and heartbeats at 28 days to confirm pregnancy and give a rough count. Bitches can reabsorb puppies from the time of that first ultrasound at 28 days and actual whelping so the count is not always accurate even if the operator is very skilled.

The reason for doing x-ray in addition to ultrasound is that the x-ray a few days before whelping gives a more accurate count and allows a vet to see if the skulls will pass through the pelvis. It won't really help with positioning. Rally's second litter was all lined up correctly 3 days prior to whelping but one had turned by the time she went into labor and got his butt wedged in the birth canal neccesitating a C-section. So even doing everything, is no gauruntee you won't have problem but the emergency vets at Davis were very happy to have all that information that I had because I had done ultrasound and x-ray. We lost the one stuck puppy but they saved the other 3.

[sharronhurlbut]

It sounds like its about stacking the odds for a successful litter yes?

[lvoss]

Yes, and being prepared if something does go wrong.

[lvoss]

A Saturday at the vet with puppies, $1200 bringing the total today to $3920.21

[lvoss]

I kind of stopped posting the running total because my mom, the co-breeder, didn't always let me know how much she paid for some services. Here are what I know of the rest of the costs for raising the litter.

Dew Claw removal and wellness check for mom and puppies - $90
First Shots + Microchip - $310
CERF Exams - $140
Second Shots - $115
Registration - $140
AKC DNA Profile - $140

New Total - 3565.21

This list doesn't include the added food expenses, paper towels, carpet cleaning, etc but I never keep track of that stuff. It also doesn't include the emergency vet visit when the pups were born. I know the estimate had been $1200 but I did not see the final bill and my mom won't tell me what it was.

Here is the cost of the stuff in the Puppy Pack that we sent home with each puppy.


Collar - $4.99
Lead - $6.99
Trial Bag of Food - $2.50
Variety of Treats that the puppy likes - $5.99
Nylabone - $3.50
Toy that smell like home - $3.99
Blanket that smells like home - $1.00
The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell - $7.95
Homemade Puppy Winter Coat - $5.00
Homemade Adult Winter Coat - $10.00
Snuggle Puppy - $13.95
Rou's Tips for Basenjis - $13.00
Total - $78.86 per Puppy Pack.

So a low estmated total is $3801.79 for the litter.

My price for my puppies comes out to $850 and my mom kept Bella so that would mean $2550 to offset costs.

So on this breeding we lost $1251.79 or the way I like to think of it, Bella cost us $1251.79. She is still cheaper than Sophie so I think we did OK.

[lvoss]

Oh, and the emergency vet visit cost can be considered the cost for TC since my mom and dad have talked to Sue and they all agreed that she could stay. She is keeping my mom's boys in line and she loves her daughter Bella.

[YodelDogs]

OoOOoooOOOO I didn't know you kept TC! That's awesome!

I totally fell over reading your litter expenses! I am....dumbstruck. I thank God that I have never had such expense with any of my litters but I know it could happen at any time.

I think you would kill me if you knew how much Ayla has cost me. :o

[lvoss]

My dad fell in love with TC and she really became his dog. So as the time approached for TC to go back to North Carolina, my dad did something that totally surprised my mom, he asked her if TC could stay. So TC is staying and my mom is hoping to finish her AKC Championship. My dad is looking forward to getting "his" dog out for some coursing and racing this year.

[mackeyfan]

thank you so very much for sharing this. I knew breeding was hard work and $$, but wow never seen someone break it down like that.
:eek:

[Schouiffy]

Can we turn this thread into a stickey??????????

[lvoss]

Most people don't realize the costs involved. I had a person call me a couple of weeks ago researching the breed. She asked what the average price of a puppy was and was shocked when I told her that in California $900 was the average. When I said this was due to the high cost of vet care in the state her response was, "You have to take them to the vet?"

Once people see the itemized cost, it all makes sense but most just never think about what goes into breeding a litter.

[Alex]

This thread is already a sticky.

[Andrew]

When I said this was due to the high cost of vet care in the state her response was, "You have to take them to the vet?"


:eek::eek::eek:

I've really enjoyed this thread, and I appreciate the work you've put into it. I had no idea how much went into breeding personally, but this comment FLOORED me!

I wonder if this person realizes you have to feed these animals & take them out to potty, too!?!?!?

[snorky998]

Some people just don't get it. I just had my 2 in for their annual visit and my total cost was $420.00 and I thought I got off easy. The cost alone of Ivermectin is astonishing.

[sharronhurlbut]

I can only hope the person posting *you have to take them to the vet* was just teasing.
Otherwise, its very sad indeed!

[tanza]

I can only hope the person posting *you have to take them to the vet* was just teasing.
Otherwise, its very sad indeed!

I doubt that Sharron.... it is a common question that I have heard... people seem to think that birthing pups is natural... and you never had problems...

[sharronhurlbut]

Oh, Pat, that breaks my heart!
Those poor girl dogs....

[lvoss]

I can only hope the person posting *you have to take them to the vet* was just teasing.
Otherwise, its very sad indeed!

She was very serious. She knew nothing about health testing, had never considered that you should get pre-natal care. She also didn't think about the after birth check up for mom and pups. I don't know how she thought shots were given. It just never occured to her that vets were involved.

[tanza]

And that is a problem we all have seen... "pre-natal" care???? That is required??????

[sharronhurlbut]

It breaks my heart they don't tend to these pg girls...
Hopefully, this info above will give them a clue.
I do so hope they listen.