Preserving Founders and Population Genetics

[lvoss]

For those who are interested in the long term preservation of the breed and why it is that the Basenji Club of America has petitioned AKC to open the stud books for the next 5 years to Native Stock imported from Africa, I have started this thread.

A great place to start to learn about the Basenji breed and the basenjis that are the Founder is the African Stock Project Library, http://www.basenji.org/african/library.htm

There are several ways to look at how well we are doing at preserving the contribution of these founders. One way is to look at the total percentage contribution of these dogs which Lisa Corell Auerbach did several years ago though I am not sure where it was published. Another is to look at male tail and female tail lines. The loss of tail lines is quite significant and they can never be gotten back. One example is Fula of the Congo who still has a significant total percentage contribution but there is only 1 breeder who has her female tail line and it was nearly lost because they very nearly didn't continue with the last female.

If anyone wants to talk about the importance of new Founders, researching their tail lines, and other genetic diversity issues, I think it would be best to move these discussions to this thread.

[Nexa]

Here is a link to the new african imports from the BCOA website. It has pictures of the imports and information on the process of the AKC opening the stud books.
http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/ImportIndex.htm

Dan

[snorky998]

Sorry, you have to help me out here. I'm familiar with the African Stock Project but have no idea what you mean by "tail lines" and "the loss of tail lines".

Throw a pet owner a bone, please:o

Is there an email or an opinion poll we can contact to voice how important it is to some of us to open the stud books to imports??

[tanza]

The stud book is open per the petition that was presented by the BCOA with that request. It will be open from 2009 to 2011 .... (I think those are the dates)
And if you want your opinion heard, members of BCOA will be asked to vote on groups of possible additions to the stud book...
All of it is reveiwed on the BCOA site... http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/ImportIndex.htm

And lvoss is a great source for learning about "tail lines".... so I will leave that to her to explain in "layman" terms.... plus many other questions about genetics...

[lvoss]

Tail lines are used to track the inheritance of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes.

Since mitochondrial DNA is inherited Maternally the Female Tail line is determined by tracing your dog back along its pedigree through the maternal line. So basically following the very bottom of the pedigree all the way back until you get to Unknown African Dog.

All of my girls, Rally, Rio, and Sophie have the same female tail line since Rally is the mother of Rio and Sophie. My girls female tail line goes back to Bokoto of Blean. TC the girl that I have bred Nicky to has a female tail going back to Amatangazig.

The male tail line traces the inheritance of the Y chromosome since it is only inherited from father to son. You can trace the male tail line following the very top of the pedigree back to Unknown African Dog.

Nicky's male tail goes back Wau which I think is one of the most common male tail lines in the gene pool. Cole, Rio's littermate, has a male tail back to Kindu. Zeke, Sophie's littermate, has a male tail back to Avongara Diagba.

Some of the founders no longer have tail lines meaning their Y chromosome if male and mitochondrial DNA if female has been lost from our gene pool. Some of these dogs still have descendants just not tail lines, some founders we have lost all together.

[mauigirl]

Very cool! Riley's goes waaaaay back to Wau also. And Zip's female tail line was Avongara Zamee in oh...4 generations. I never thought to keep clicking back on Zande pedigree search to see how far back it goes...

[tanza]

Tail lines are used to track the inheritance of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes.

Since mitochondrial DNA is inherited Maternally the Female Tail line is determined by tracing your dog back along its pedigree through the maternal line. So basically following the very bottom of the pedigree all the way back until you get to Unknown African Dog.

All of my girls, Rally, Rio, and Sophie have the same female tail line since Rally is the mother of Rio and Sophie. My girls female tail line goes back to Bokoto of Blean. TC the girl that I have bred Nicky to has a female tail going back to Amatangazig.

The male tail line traces the inheritance of the Y chromosome since it is only inherited from father to son. You can trace the male tail line following the very top of the pedigree back to Unknown African Dog.

Nicky's male tail goes back Wau which I think is one of the most common male tail lines in the gene pool. Cole, Rio's littermate, has a male tail back to Kindu. Zeke, Sophie's littermate, has a male tail back to Avongara Diagba.

Some of the founders no longer have tail lines meaning their Y chromosome if male and mitochondrial DNA if female has been lost from our gene pool. Some of these dogs still have descendants just not tail lines, some founders we have lost all together.

And my Kobey is Amatangazig and Bokoto of Blean also ....

If you all have a chance, go into Sally's pedigree site and you can see pictures of these very, very first Basenjis from the 40's....

[tanza]

Here is the link to Sally's site
http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/

[renaultf1]

This is so cool!!! Thanks Lisa for explaining it all so clearly. Ruby's tail line is back to Amatangazig (neat to see her pic). Brando's tail line is back to Moko (no pic unfortunately). So neat to see pictures of the dogs way back.

Actually, there was another thing that I never noticed before about Ruby's pedigree and that is that she's related to Nate (Akuaba's Tornado)...not sure how I had missed that (Ruby's registered name on her AKC paperwork is Eldorado N Akuaba's Bejeweled).

Sally's site is such a wealth of info! It was especially cool checking the tail lines for me as Ruby is from the US, but Brando is from Finland...so it was cool to look at his pedigree...and I had never done it past the regular 5 levels.

Thanks Lisa!!!

[snorky998]

Just want to clarify. At Sally's web page you follow the bitches links back by way of clicks to the bottom most bitch on the page for the tail lines? Studs, only the top most link?

Clarification on one other thing please,Ivoss.....(previous post by Ivoss)...."Some of these dogs still have descendants just not tail lines, some founders we have lost all together." Where's the difference between 'a descendant of', and 'the loss of' a tail line in the documents at Sally's site? I'm not sure what I'm looking at in that respect . Thanks in advance for indulging this particular 'ignorant but trying to educate myself' pet owner.:D

BTW, thanks to those here that posted this thread and it's follow-up posts. That's why I came here to the forums to begin with. To learn and share.

[JazzysMom]

LOL, okay so I've traced back lineage through the years to unknown African on the whole pedigree, but it still means nothing to me.
ha ha

I guess I don't "get" what the "tail line" is - I mean, ultimately they are ALL from an unknown African. Is it a matter of how many generations back?

Maybe it's lack of sleep, but I just don't get it. Thank God I'm not a breeder.

[ComicDom1]

The last dog on the bottom and top of the pedigree BEFORE it says "unknown african dog" is the original founder that your dog is descended from.

On Roo's mother's side, he goes back to Amatangazig, which means that Roo is related to Ruby (owned by renaultf1) distantly, anyway!

It's really quite cool.

[JazzysMom]

Okay, BUT.... aren't they ALL traceable eventually back to a founder dog? So... how is a "tail line" lost?
Or is it a matter of the number of degrees between current and unknown?

{Geez, am I just particularly stupid?}

[JazzysMom]

Okay, it appears that BOTH of my dogs come from Tango {and N'Gashi} at the bottom of their pedigree and BOTH come via Kindu {and Kasenyi} at the top.

Interesting to me because, although I know they are related on the dam side, Keoki's sire came from Australia.

[wizard]

A bit of spam got in there I think.

Anyway what a cool site (Sally's) - I traced EL D back (a long way) to founders Amantagazig and Wau. Interesting to see the pictures - I can see where he gets his chunkiness from.

[LiveWWSD]

A question to the breeders on the forum...

I notice that reading through the African stock project pages that some of the original Basenjis seem to be taller than the current. I wanted to get some opinions from those of you actively breeding as to what your thoughts are on this area. I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches. Do you as breeders feel this represents the traditional height of Basenjis or do you feel that breeders over the years have tended towards the smaller stature. In the original news post from 1937 the author lists Basenjis as the same size and stature as the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound. This seems at odds with both the standard for Basenjis as well as my personal experience with American Basenjis, as both the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound stand at 18-21 inches.

Have we in your opinions selected for the smaller spectrum of these dogs over the years, and as we get more bloodlines of newer imports into the genetic mix, will we continue to look for smaller dogs, or will larger Basenjis still be incorporated if they are over 17 inches?

Ultimately as breeders I am also wondering how high up in the requirements for breeding stock you place the height of the dog.

Thank you so much for indulging my curiosity. :)

[tanza]

A question to the breeders on the forum...

I notice that reading through the African stock project pages that some of the original Basenjis seem to be taller than the current. I wanted to get some opinions from those of you actively breeding as to what your thoughts are on this area. I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches. Do you as breeders feel this represents the traditional height of Basenjis or do you feel that breeders over the years have tended towards the smaller stature. In the original news post from 1937 the author lists Basenjis as the same size and stature as the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound. This seems at odds with both the standard for Basenjis as well as my personal experience with American Basenjis, as both the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound stand at 18-21 inches.

Have we in your opinions selected for the smaller spectrum of these dogs over the years, and as we get more bloodlines of newer imports into the genetic mix, will we continue to look for smaller dogs, or will larger Basenjis still be incorporated if they are over 17 inches?

Ultimately as breeders I am also wondering how high up in the requirements for breeding stock you place the height of the dog.

Thank you so much for indulging my curiosity. :)

Remember we have no DQ for size, the standard is (IMO) from an average... not a limit. We alreaday have ones bigger (and smaller) both in dogs and bitches. I doubt that any new import from Africia that applies for acceptance into the stub book would be discounted just because of size.

And if you have ever seen Veronica Tudor-William's Basenjis, The Barkless Dog first published in 1946, the size is of the dogs were 16 to 17 on the average.

[tanza]

A question to the breeders on the forum...

I notice that reading through the African stock project pages that some of the original Basenjis seem to be taller than the current. I wanted to get some opinions from those of you actively breeding as to what your thoughts are on this area. I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches. Do you as breeders feel this represents the traditional height of Basenjis or do you feel that breeders over the years have tended towards the smaller stature. In the original news post from 1937 the author lists Basenjis as the same size and stature as the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound. This seems at odds with both the standard for Basenjis as well as my personal experience with American Basenjis, as both the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound stand at 18-21 inches.

Have we in your opinions selected for the smaller spectrum of these dogs over the years, and as we get more bloodlines of newer imports into the genetic mix, will we continue to look for smaller dogs, or will larger Basenjis still be incorporated if they are over 17 inches?

Ultimately as breeders I am also wondering how high up in the requirements for breeding stock you place the height of the dog.

Thank you so much for indulging my curiosity. :)

Remember we have no DQ for size, the standard is (IMO) from an average... not a limit. We alreaday have ones bigger (and smaller) both in dogs and bitches. I doubt that any new import from Africia that applies for acceptance into the stub book would be discounted just because of size.

And if you have ever seen Veronica Tudor-William's Basenjis, The Barkless Dog first published in 1946, the size is of the dogs were 16 to 17 on the average.

[LiveWWSD]

Thanks Pat,
I almost included in my post that I know we don't have a DQ for size.
In your opinion is the size of a dog or bitch completely inconsequential to breeding as long as the body conformation is there (And of course HEALTH and temperament)?

Also What is the tallest/shortest dog that you yourself have bred. Just as a curiosity.

[lvoss]

I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches.
The actual wording in the standard describes height as a single point. Females 16 inches at the withers. Males 17 inches at the withers.

The rule of thumb that I was always told, by many long time fanciers is that most breeders aim for being within +/- 1 inch of that mark. So for females that would be 15-17 inches and males 16-18 inches. I think we drift in that range quite a bit sometimes tending toward larger, sometimes smaller.

[LiveWWSD]

The actual wording in the standard describes height as a single point. Females 16 inches at the withers. Males 17 inches at the withers.

The rule of thumb that I was always told, by many long time fanciers is that most breeders aim for being within +/- 1 inch of that mark. So for females that would be 15-17 inches and males 16-18 inches. I think we drift in that range quite a bit sometimes tending toward larger, sometimes smaller.

Thank you Lisa that makes good sense to me. :)

I was wondering also what the percentage (if known) of Congo dogs to Sudan dogs are in the American bloodlines. I notice that, traditionally, the Sudanese dogs seem to be of a smaller build than the dogs from the Congo region. Does this account for some of the size differences we see in American Basenjis. I know I have allot of questions today, but I am trying to expand my understanding of the different bloodlines that make up our wonderful dogs.

Thank you all for bearing with me as all these questions pop up. :)

[lvoss]

I don't know the percentages and am not sure if anyone has compiled that data.

Using my dogs and their lines as an example though, I think that there are many factors that influence the range of size we see. My dogs all go back to Kenset dogs for at least half of their pedigree. Nicky, my male, is about 17 1/8 inches tall at the withers. Rally is just shy of 16 1/2 inches, Rio is 16 1/2 inches, and Sophie is just shy of 16 3/4 inches. The male siblings of Rio and Sophie are all somewhere in the 17 1/2 to 17 3/4 range last I saw them.

Now this year, I leased a girl, whose pedigree is also heavily Kenset. TC is closer to 15 1/2 inches tall. So are most of the girls in her breeder's house, and all of them are at least 50% Kenset in pedigree. Most of the boys she has run tall, close to 18 inches.

So even in the same lines you can get differences that I think are influenced by breeder selection. Tomorrow we will find out if TC is pregnant, if she is, I would expect that the pups will all grow to be within that +/- 1 inch of the standard but it will be interesting to see how their heights turn out as adults.

[tanza]

Thanks Pat,
I almost included in my post that I know we don't have a DQ for size.
In your opinion is the size of a dog or bitch completely inconsequential to breeding as long as the body conformation is there (And of course HEALTH and temperament)?

Also What is the tallest/shortest dog that you yourself have bred. Just as a curiosity.

The tallest, I think would be Tego, who is 17 1/2 (male) and the smallest would be Tiba (bitch) just at 15 1/4. I don't think that size is totally inconsequential and should consider in your "idea" of the perfect Basenji when breeding... but a decision, all others being equal would not just rest on size. And you have to take into account family lines on size, as I would think twice breeding two dogs from lines that either always breed big or small.

My Jamari (male) is to the small side at 16 3/4, so I would not breed him to a line that typically had Basenjis to the small side...

[Woofless]

I think this thread may be a little old- but I just stumbled upon it & I am fascinated. Never heard the term "tail line" until today.

So, if I understand correctly, you trace the male & female tail lines, basically by clicking the uppermost or bottom-most link in the 5-gen pedigree?

If that is the case, Jibini goes back to Amantigazig and a dog named Kindu. Tana my mill rescue goes back to a dog named Tango on the female side, and a dog named Wau on the male side. It is very interesting to look back that far....you can really *see* the limited gene pool and linebreeding that took place.

I'm a little confused as to how a dog "loses" a tail line, however. If you can trace *any* Basenji back to the point where the pedigree says "unknown native dog"....how is the line "lost"?? How can you tell just by looking at the pedigree?

I'm just another pet owner who is endlessly fascinated with this breed & its genetics....so many things about Basenjis that simply don't apply to other breeds. I love it. Thanks for any input :).

[lvoss]

Losing a tail line means that there are no longer any descendants that can trace back to that founder in that manner.

[Elscodobermann]

Very interesting thread - i am facinated by the history of all breeds, but the Zande pedigree website makes things so simple. Did a search on Tilly - she goes back tail female to Tango( via Bereke of Blean) , and tail male to Kindu (via Am Ch. Kingolo).

[Basenjimamma]

Ok, so this is cool. I still can not figure out how to use it though. I plunk in my dogs parents and then what? I just need some clarification...it's a blond thing..

Petra

[YodelDogs]

On the main page, type in your dog's registered name and search. When your dog's name comes up, select the link that says "pedigree w/links". This will show a 4 generation pedigree. Your dog's name will be all the way on the left. The 2 boxes in the column to the right of your dog's name will be the parents. Then the next column will be the grandparents, etc. The sire (father) is always the top name and the dam (mother) will be below it.

To trace a tail male line you simply click the topmost male's link (all the way to the right) in the pedigree. When it's pedigree open's up you click the topmost male's link and so on and so forth. You do the reverse with female's clicking the lowermost female link and so on.

[Basenjimamma]

Thanks for the info. If I plunk in Otis' parents names here goes, first the sire all the way back on the top line - Kindu, and on the dame's side all the way back on the bottom line goes to Amatangazig. Did I do that right?
Either way it is really cool, like said previously to see pics of these older dogs and also of course to see were your dog came from.
Petra

[Borbasuk]

All four of mine go back tail male to Kindu. Ruby goes tail female to Bereke of Blean, Bryn and Keiko to Amatangazig, and Ezri to Fula OTC.

[Benkura]

Hey, that's really interesting. I've played with Sally's website like that before but had never heard of 'Tail lines' before. All 4 of mine have female tail lines to Amatangazig. 3 have male tail lines to Moko and 1 male tail line to Kindu. :)