Just going over my Options...

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

So as you all know we are getting a B Puppy by Christmas and We are going thru our options...anyway, I could REALLY use some advice...

When we get our puppy we need to decide on neutering or keeping intact and letting Gretchen show our B for us. She is willing to do so (because we live close) but if she does we will not be able to get full AKC registration on the dog but we Could get limited registration.This litter has huge show potential, and I almost feel bad about not allowing some showing. But of course my Mother is a Shower and says I am crazy if I don't...but I'm not and have no idea what to do...What would your opinions be?

Thanks

[tanza]

I don't understand your statement about full registration? If they are shown they can NOT be on a limited registration. And they are still registered, the difference is with limited is that you can't show them in conformation (but in everything else) and if they were to be bred, you could not get AKC papers on the pups.

Who are the sire and dam again of the litter? (registered names)... We all would like to think that our planned litters have show potential, however until the pups are born and grow up some, you really don't know and things that you need to think about if you let the breeder show him is
1. Time away from home
2. Cost of the entries and they are usually 25.00 to 30.00 a day
3. Keeping him intact and possible behavior problems (note I said possible)

In the end, if you can afford the entry fees (unless your breeder is paying form them) you might want to leave him intact for a bit, let her show him a few times and see how he does. I don't think you need to decide for certain until at least the litter is born... IMO

[snorky998]

Tanza, part of your post reads slightly aggressive. QUOTE "Who are the sire and dam again of the litter? (registered names)... We all would like to think that our planned litters have show potential, however until the pups are born and grow up some, you really don't know...."

I understand your good intentions but I can also see, as a fellow "Iggy", posting a valid question, that you may have come off as judgmental.

Capt Jack has been a member for a long time and was seeking info into a new aspect of B. ownership. IMHO, part of your response was unnecessarily unkind and patronizing.

I really respect your opinion here on the forums. I hope you take this as just my perspective on an individual post, and not a bashing toward you personally.

[lvoss]

Dam: Kokopelli's Electra
Sire: Wakan Sunshine Super Nova

Well, I would just be honest with the breeder that you have never had a show dog and are not sure if it is something you will enjoy or not even if it is just sitting on the sidelines and watching him in the ring with her. That you wouldn't mind giving it a try but that if it isn't working out you want to be able to neuter and just have your companion dog.

[tanza]

Tanza, part of your post reads slightly aggressive. QUOTE "Who are the sire and dam again of the litter? (registered names)... We all would like to think that our planned litters have show potential, however until the pups are born and grow up some, you really don't know...."

I understand your good intentions but I can also see, as a fellow "Iggy", posting a valid question, that you may have come off as judgmental.

Capt Jack has been a member for a long time and was seeking info into a new aspect of B. ownership. IMHO, part of your response was unnecessarily unkind and patronizing.

I really respect your opinion here on the forums. I hope you take this as just my perspective on an individual post, and not a bashing toward you personally.

I was responding to her question.... and sorry if it seems judgmental... but it was not.... I don't think I said anything about neutering or not... in fact, my suggestion was to leave the pup in-tact and show a couple of times to see how he would stack up...

The fact that I said that many of us have "high hopes" as show potential is the truth... I don't think there is a breeder out there that can say from unborn pups they have huge show potential. To me that is just setting someone up for disappointment if they then start to show and the pup doesn't measure up.

And I asked about the sire and dam names because I was interested in who they are... I couldn't look at the sire and dam and say one way or the other if the pups born would or would not have show potential.

I was also trying to explain that l think there was some confusion about limited and regular registration..

[Quercus]

Dam: Kokopelli's Electra
Sire: Wakan Sunshine Super Nova

Well, I would just be honest with the breeder that you have never had a show dog and are not sure if it is something you will enjoy or not even if it is just sitting on the sidelines and watching him in the ring with her. That you wouldn't mind giving it a try but that if it isn't working out you want to be able to neuter and just have your companion dog.

I agree with Pat and Lvoss. Just wait and see..... If the puppy that she thinks would best fit your family is show quality at eight weeks, and you are interested in having him shown, or showing him, then by all means go for it.

I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about it now, because you just don't know how the litter will turn out. As Pat said, everybody plans that there will be at least one show dog in a litter...and hopes that there may be more. But there are usually more pet puppies in any given litter than show pupies....even if they all are capable of finishing their championship.

And, as Pat said...Limited Registration is for pets that are not intended to be shown and bred...Full registration is for dogs that may be shown and bred from. You can change full to limited, but not limited to full (I think..)

And if you decide to do the show thing, there will probably be a contract that spells out what the breeder expects you to do to have the dog ready for the show ring or testing that will need to be done before breeding...lots of breeders only sell show stock on a co-ownership, particularly to new exhibitors.

Good luck, let us know what you decide :)

[Quercus]

Oh, and yeah...showing can be really expensive (entries and gas) and really frustrating (what was that judge *thinking*!!) and really frightening...think severe stage fright that travels right down the lead to your dog!!

But it can also be a lot of fun, and you meet a lot of great people.

[tanza]

You can change (the breeder can only do the change) from Limited to Full regular registration.....

[tanza]

And to add about showing.... you need to be thick skinned... there are lots of fun, wonderful, helpful people that show... but there are others that are not so helpful or friendly, especially if you beat their dogs.... So you have to learn to "roll" with the punches... Some times the best dog wins, sometimes it doesn't. And those of us who show, always expect to win, otherwise we would not be there... and there can only be one winners on any given day.

[sharronhurlbut]

Showing can be tough, unless you go into it with with a "lets see how good my dog does today" attitude.
I don't show, but my dear friend Lisa does.
She goes into the ring with the thinking, lets have some fun...if she wins great, if not, lets give the dog a good showing.
I love being ringside with her.
She always leaves the ring with a smile.

[Quercus]

And to add about showing.... you need to be thick skinned... there are lots of fun, wonderful, helpful people that show... but there are others that are not so helpful or friendly, especially if you beat their dogs.... So you have to learn to "roll" with the punches... Some times the best dog wins, sometimes it doesn't. And those of us who show, always expect to win, otherwise we would not be there... and there can only be one winners on any given day.

I would say that I, personally *hope* to win on any given day. I rarely expect to win. Sometimes I am more confident than others...and those are usually the days that my dog gets dumped ;)

But, yes, you do need to have thick skin, and remember that the judges' opinion of your dog is just that, and educated opinion....it isn't a reflection on your dog as your companion. And it isn't a reflection on you as an owner. A lot of people take the whole thing WAY too seriously. It is really a big game...and to REALLY enjoy it to its full extent, you need to be a competitive person.

[Quercus]

Showing can be tough, unless you go into it with with a "lets see how good my dog does today" attitude.
I don't show, but my dear friend Lisa does.
She goes into the ring with the thinking, lets have some fun...if she wins great, if not, lets give the dog a good showing.
I love being ringside with her.
She always leaves the ring with a smile.

I agree Sharron. We go to shows to have fun with our dogs...when we stop having fun, we take a break from showing. It needs to be fun for the dogs...my goal is to have my dog behave and "show" better each time we go in the ring (especially now with my crazy puppy)....and to have fun. I admit, of course it is more fun to win than not...but it takes time and patience often to get the reward :)

[sharronhurlbut]

But isn't it just wonderful to see a puppy, do a puppy bow when on the table or lick the judges face.
YES, I know, not at all "show" stuff..but I have yet to see a judge that didn't smile with this type of puppy play!
Did the puppy win, sometimes, but smiles were shared by us ringside.

[sharronhurlbut]

Oh, I forgot to say a puppy brooing at the judge did once bring the house down!
I still smile at that memory!

[tanza]

I would say that I, personally *hope* to win on any given day. I rarely expect to win. Sometimes I am more confident than others...and those are usually the days that my dog gets dumped ;)

But, yes, you do need to have thick skin, and remember that the judges' opinion of your dog is just that, and educated opinion....it isn't a reflection on your dog as your companion. And it isn't a reflection on you as an owner. A lot of people take the whole thing WAY too seriously. It is really a big game...and to REALLY enjoy it to its full extent, you need to be a competitive person.

I do "expect" to win... as I think that my dog that I am showing is deserving...and competive... but they are still my companion... and I can appreciate being "beat" in the ring by another deserving dog... but still, I enter the ring expecting to win... but that is the competitive streak....

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

Wow...thank you all!! I cant believe how much you all responded! awesome. I know there are no specific details I can give about the puppy at all, except the sire and dam, lol, but I wasn't sure what I was getting myself into with this whole deal at all...I guess I REALLY need to talk to Gretchen about the details! She said if I "don't neuter then I can only get limited registration" so I didn't know what that meant...I cant breed right? that's not a problem with me. What I really wanted is to see (IF i get a show quality dog) if I he/she could do well in the show and It could be fun! I guess I don't really know just yet whats going on, hahaa...maybe i AM getting ahead of myself, but...I thought maybe i could ask and see what you all think, lol...Thank you!! Anyone know if my breeder was right about my litter having "show quality" going by the sire and dam?? Anyway, Im just SOOOOOOO darn ANXIOUS about the puppy....i CANT wait until Christmas...its TOO long!!!!!!!!! hehee

[lvoss]

First off, you realize that if the due date of your puppy is November 11, the earliest that the pup would be ready to come home is probably the second weekend of January, that is when they will be 8 weeks old. Though they are usually ready for visitors by 4 weeks old and I always encourage families to come spend time with their pups before they are ready to go home.

As for the chances of having show quality pups, like Pat said, that is what all breeders are hoping for but you never really know how a litter will turn out. Sometimes you will think that a combination should produce stellar pups and you end up with okay pups but not what you expected.

[tanza]

Wow...thank you all!! I cant believe how much you all responded! awesome. I know there are no specific details I can give about the puppy at all, except the sire and dam, lol, but I wasn't sure what I was getting myself into with this whole deal at all...I guess I REALLY need to talk to Gretchen about the details! She said if I "don't neuter then I can only get limited registration" so I didn't know what that meant...I cant breed right? that's not a problem with me. What I really wanted is to see (IF i get a show quality dog) if I he/she could do well in the show and It could be fun! I guess I don't really know just yet whats going on, hahaa...maybe i AM getting ahead of myself, but...I thought maybe i could ask and see what you all think, lol...Thank you!! Anyone know if my breeder was right about my litter having "show quality" going by the sire and dam?? Anyway, Im just SOOOOOOO darn ANXIOUS about the puppy....i CANT wait until Christmas...its TOO long!!!!!!!!! hehee

Exactly as lvoss said... pups would not be ready for their new homes till as least the 2nd wk in January... I don't place pups till 10wks of age.. at the earliest.. as first shots are at 9wks and eye exam are between 9 and 10wks...

And no one can really give you and idea if any of the pups would be show quaility until they are 8wks. Most breeders judge their litters at that age as to quality, show, pet, ect.... and again, while we all as breeders hope to get at least one good show quality pup from a litter.... until they are born... no one can really tell what that litter might have..... Your breeder is neither right or wrong... at least not till the litter is born and they are at least 8wks and can be evaluated for show quality....

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

Hmm...I guess I was confused about the dates, lol...well darn! even longer... thanks again for your opinions!

[Tayda_Lenny]

I also wanted to throw my 2 cents in here regarding being a show home for a pup. I was Lenny's show home for his first 2 years and his breeder was taking him on weekends to show him. When I got him, moving away was not on the agenda, but we did end up moving when he was 2 years old and things got a bit complicated with her wanting him to be kept intact and still be shown by someone who lived near where I moved to. That was turning out to be impossible and it was hard to convince her that my situation did not allow for what she was wanting...

I would just encourage you to go through all of the "what if's" with your breeder so that you can try to avoid some of the confusion/tension that I went through when my situation changed....

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

Thank you, I will be keeping ALL of this in mind!! Thanks again!

[LiveWWSD]

She said if I "don't neuter then I can only get limited registration" so I didn't know what that meant...I cant breed right?

That is exactly how I would take that. Of course the best thing to do is just talk it over with your breeder so you get all your questions answered. The thing is, if the dog became a show dog he would have to be registered without a limited registration. It's a good question to ask the breeders and show people here who may have dealt with this, and know AKC rules for it.

"If you have a show dog that finishes, and you then require the owner to neuter/spay. Do you register the dog with a full registration and just require a neuter/spay contract. Or can a dog be co-owned on a full registration, finish, and then be transfered as a limited registration?"

there I asked it for you, because I am interested to know. :)

[tanza]

In order to show, the dog must be on full registration, however many breeders put it in the contract that after they finish "or" if there are other reasons that the dog will not finish, as both parties change their mind about showing, the dog is to be spay/neutered. Usually that is all done up front and put in the contract when the pup is purchased. Typically also, if the dog is to be left in tact, they are on a co-ownership with the breeder.

A dog can be transferred to a limited registration by the breeder

[lvoss]

A dog with full registration can not be changed to limited registration. A dog with limited registration can be changed to full at the breeder's request.

[tanza]

A dog with full registration can not be changed to limited registration. A dog with limited registration can be changed to full at the breeder's request.

See that we all learn something new.... which I suppose makes sense......

So then if left intact all needs to be spelled out in the contract... but then again, in reality, the contract is only worth the paper it is written on... and AKC really doesn't like co-ownerships as they have been in the middle of disagreements with the co-owners....

That said, I have never had a problem with co-ownerships, either being the buyer or the seller... IMO, if you place dog on a show contract but the owner changes their mind and really want to neuter/spay... I say, go for it... as the most important thing is the home, not the show ring...or breeding at some later point. If a male, I might ask to leave intact until collected, but then it would be my responsibility to get the dog collected asap.... and cover all the cost for doing so.

[LiveWWSD]

Thank you Pat and Lisa,
I was wondering if that could be done or not. I know allot of breeders take care of it in initial contract, I just wasn't sure if that was because the limited registration could be invoked at a later time during a transfer.

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

whoa...lol I guess to me its a whole lot of business...maybe it would just be easier to neuter...thats what my husband wants anyway...I just dont know. We will have to see...

[sharronhurlbut]

I do have to tell you, nutering your boy will make it easier of you and mostly on him.
I do hope you decide to do this.
You can always do a collection before this happens...then you will have "it".

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

eww, lol but yea good point. thanks again!

[lvoss]

With Nicky, my arrangement was to keep him intact for 18 months while I tried things out to see if showing was something I would be interested in. If at the end of the 18 months I was not interested in showing then he would be neutered, no pressure and no hard feelings. On the other hand, if I enjoyed showing then I would keep him intact and show him to his championship.

With Pat's help on the majors we ended up going the show to his championship route. Though with a novice handler, it did take him a while to finish. He was 6 years old when he earned his championship, so it can be a long road.

[ComicDom1]

In order to show, the dog must be on full registration, however many breeders put it in the contract that after they finish "or" if there are other reasons that the dog will not finish, as both parties change their mind about showing, the dog is to be spay/neutered. Usually that is all done up front and put in the contract when the pup is purchased. Typically also, if the dog is to be left in tact, they are on a co-ownership with the breeder.

A dog can be transferred to a limited registration by the breeder

Exactly what I have always understood. So this is a lot to think about and consider before you decide to purchase a puppy from a breeder. I know from past experience with other breeds, sometimes you will come across a breeder that will allow you full ownership so its less complicated. It appears from what I have seen posted from Breeders who participate on this chat board that co-ownership is very common with Basenji's that are shown. Since it has been many years since I have investigated or participated in showing, its very possible the same co ownership had spread to other breeds as well. I am sure someone who is currently involved or more experienced than I, could probably answer the question if co-ownership is now more common place with other breeds as well.

Jason

[tanza]

It really depends on the breed.... but it is pretty common that a show prospect is co-owned by the breeder. Especially because breeders like to show their dogs in Bred By Exhibitor class and they have to not only be the breeder but an owner also. AKC give a medallion to breeders that finish their dogs championship from the Bred By Exhibitor classes, also for other awards like Lure Coursing, OB, Rally titles....

[ComicDom1]

Thanks for the answer Pat. I got away from showing back in 1996 when I was still involved in the Chicago Miniature Schnauzer club.

Jason