Breeding Using Younger Dogs

[Nemo]

I'm in the process of meeting several breeders so I can hopefully bring home a cute little female basenji this winter. So I've got lots of questions but this one stands out for me given what I've read on the forum so far.

Two of the three breeders I've talked two are using sires (one is using a puppy from their own kennel, the other is using another breeder's male) that are few months shy of a year old. My understanding is that you can't officially do all of the health testing (e.g. hips) when they are that young. So do you look off of their pedigrees to try and make a judgement from that in this instance? Give my lack of experience in this area, is this commonplace or atypical? Why breed off of such a young dog? I'm meeting one of the breeders this Thursday so I plan to ask her some questions around this. But I'd like to get some other impressions on this so I can make the best informed decision.

Thanks much,
Clay

[LiveWWSD]

Well I am not a breeder of course, but IMO the only reason to use SUCH a young dog is to make puppies that you can sell. I don't see a reason at all to breed that young. Even if the sire or dam is SOOO amazing in temperament and conformation, you still have some health tests that can't quite be run yet. I would think a good responsible breeder would be more than willing to wait a few more years and really get a handle on if this dog will be what they want to breed.

[Nemo]

In these cases, I would say they are definitely not BYBs.

[sharronhurlbut]

They are not byb?
Are they show folks?
Many show dogs don't even finish until they are over a yr as the dogs body isn't fully formed.
What is the background of these people?
*not asking names* but what testing have they had done on the Adult b's they are breeding?
Again, not being critical, but this sure doesn't sound right to me.
A kennel name will be something YOU can check out of the sites that Pat and Lisa share for health issue.

[Nemo]

[QUOTE=sharronhurlbut]They are not byb?
Are they show folks?

They are show folks. If I'm reading the results right, at least one of the dogs placed at Nationals.

This is why I am asking the question primarly, because I know these breeders are very active in the basenji community and have been mentioned several times on this forum. I don't want to give the impression that I am trying to call them "irresponsible breeders", I'm just asking out curiosity so I can be informed when I talk with them and decide to make a decision about which breeder to get my dog from.

[mauigirl]

Are all of the 3 options in the BCOA? Because that would rule out one in WI you ought to run from....fast.

[sharronhurlbut]

Being someone who shows is just a part of it..
Sigh.
I wish Pat would speak up.
I do rescue but go to a lot of dog shows.
I know folks that myself and others consider BYB who show.
Heavens, this sounds like I am slamming show breeders and its not the case.
Quality breeders are the ones who will get the health of our dogs to where it should be.
Non quality breeders do it for $$$ or ego, or who knows...
Seems now a days, you pay the same for each puppy, so its wonderful your checking to see you get the very best dog you can.
I know BCOA breeders who I wouldn't recommend.
But that is a place to start.
Check out Sally Wallis site re the sire/dams health.
That will give you a clue as to what these folks have done in the past, and will do in the future.
More homework is better.

[Nemo]

The are all listed in BCOA. Again, definitely not a puppymill or BYB.

[Nemo]

I've looked through the pedigrees too and I am not concerned there either with regards to the histories of the breeders. I feel (as a novice) I've checked every resource I know of, but I'm asking here because I don't think the answer to this question is that obvious to me or necessarily straightforward. I know what the general feeling on this forum would likely be, but I don't want to make assumptions.

I really appreciate all of the responses, it's part of my homework.

Thanks,
Clay

[tanza]

I'm in the process of meeting several breeders so I can hopefully bring home a cute little female basenji this winter. So I've got lots of questions but this one stands out for me given what I've read on the forum so far.

Two of the three breeders I've talked two are using sires (one is using a puppy from their own kennel, the other is using another breeder's male) that are few months shy of a year old. My understanding is that you can't officially do all of the health testing (e.g. hips) when they are that young. So do you look off of their pedigrees to try and make a judgement from that in this instance? Give my lack of experience in this area, is this commonplace or atypical? Why breed off of such a young dog? I'm meeting one of the breeders this Thursday so I plan to ask her some questions around this. But I'd like to get some other impressions on this so I can make the best informed decision.

Thanks much,
Clay

First, there are breeders out there that many of us would consider "pure of profit" breeders... they might show sometimes... but they really do not finish many dogs, nor do the really health test...

There is really no good reason to use a dog that young. As you correctly assumed, to young for Hips to be done (you can get prelims, but they would also be on the OFA site) and it is not common place, at least not usually... a breeder "might" have a really good reason.... and "if" the hips are at least prelim'ed (and elbows too), Fanconi test done, Thyroid, current eye exam... the next thing I would look at is how old are the Sire and Dam, Grand sire/Grand dam of that dog. If they have good age on them, at least you have a starting point for health. What you find many times is that the dog being used is 1yr or younger, Sire and Dam of that dog are 2 or 3yrs old, the grand sire/dam of that dog is 4 or 5yrs old. This doesn't give you a very good idea of a long health life of that particular pedigree.... IMO.... and IMO it is not worth it to rely on their pedigree for health...

And you can take that kennel name and search OFA site for that breeders dogs.... but remember, just because they have test a "couple" you need to know how many pups they are producing over all... and then how many are they testing.

[tanza]

And while it is great that they are a member of BCOA, this doesn't give everyone a "green" light that they are a good or responsible breeder.

[sharronhurlbut]

Thanks Pat.

[myran]

Visited the Klassics kennel page and she is using a dog well under a year this season and she certainly isn´t an unknown breeder.Not to critize but isn´t that a bit too young?

[sharronhurlbut]

What health testing have they done?
It sure does sound too young to me.
I have to share what I heard years ago ring side. Yes at a AKC basenji show.
Don't know who said it, but it shocked me even then.
They said, yes, show and breed them young, before any of the "troubles" show up.
I will leave that to you all to figure out what they meant.

[tanza]

Visited the Klassics kennel page and she is using a dog well under a year this season and she certainly isn´t an unknown breeder.Not to critize but isn´t that a bit too young?

It is young, but as I said, if it were me and I was looking to use a very young male (not that I am planning on doing that) but here are the things I would consider....

1. Prelim hips and elbows
2. Eye Exam
3. Fanconi - (this particular dog is from two Clear parents, so it is not quite as important, however for me, I think it should be done)
4. Thyroid
5. Age of the parents....
In this case the sire of this particular dog was born in 1997 and is still living, Dam of this particular dog was born in 2000, obviously living
Grandsire of the dog still living born in 1995, Grand dam of this dog born 1992 and died in 2006 at at 14, Grandsire on the bottom side born in 1898, died at 14, and Grand dam born 1997 and still living.
So, that give a very good long life for this particular dog's pedigree which would for me play into using a dog of this age

[Nemo]

It is young, but as I said, if it were me and I was looking to use a very young male (not that I am planning on doing that) but here are the things I would consider....

1. Prelim hips and elbows
2. Eye Exam
3. Fanconi - (this particular dog is from two Clear parents, so it is not quite as important, however for me, I think it should be done)
4. Thyroid
5. Age of the parents....
In this case the sire of this particular dog was born in 1997 and is still living, Dam of this particular dog was born in 2000, obviously living
Grandsire of the dog still living born in 1995, Grand dam of this dog born 1992 and died in 2006 at at 14, Grandsire on the bottom side born in 1898, died at 14, and Grand dam born 1997 and still living.
So, that give a very good long life for this particular dog's pedigree which would for me play into using a dog of this age

Thanks, this helps me understand more specifically what to look for in this situation. (particularly #5, I was already looking at 1-4 thanks to previous forum comments).

[lvoss]

I know many breeders who are well known in the breed and who have been breeding for a long time, who will breed very young dogs. I have also seen this practice produce dogs that have health issues. The common justifications that I have heard, "This is the last litter the bitch is going to have so if I want this breeding I have to do it now" and "I know my line and xyz isn't a problem so it's okay"

I would really look closely at the vertical pedigree data on a young dog that is being considered, use Sally's reverse pedigree function and look at what the parents have produced in any older sibs or cousins. This is a little time consuming to have to go back and forth between Sally's database and the OFA one but can really show some trends you might be surprised by.

Also be aware that there are known breeders with show winners, who are BCOA members who have bred dogs that are known to be dysplastic, meaning you can look them up in the OFA database and see they had them x-rayed, knew the results and bred anyways. There are breeders who have bred dogs who have tested as Fanconi Carriers by marker test to untested or worse. So just because they are well known in the breed does not mean they meet the criteria for responsible.

[Nemo]

Thanks again for the input.

Is there a way to see if a dog is still alive that I am missing? The pedigree site doesn't tell you and it wasn't obvious on the AKC or OFA site either. The breeder of the younger dog doesn't have a website that I can tell.

[Nemo]

To answer my own question, I guess the breeder or owner would have to go to the effort to report this. Maybe that is unlikely.

[lvoss]

It is not really that easy to verify whether a dog is still living or not without talking to the owner or breeder. Many of us who do showing or performance are familiar with each other and keep track of that information for well known dogs.

[tanza]

Neither the OFA or Sally Wallis's pedigree site lists date of death so there is no place to report it, the CPP site now has a place for date of death, but not that many use it or have their information as an open database... the only way to know is if the breeder tells you and/or you happen to know the dogs. In the case of the ones that I noted... I know both the breeders and on some of the lists we all post and talk when one of ours crosses the Rainbow Bridge... and those of us that have web sites will usually note it on there too. If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at.....

[Nemo]

Neither the OFA or Sally Wallis's pedigree site lists date of death so there is no place to report it, the CPP site now has a place for date of death, but not that many use it or have their information as an open database... the only way to know is if the breeder tells you and/or you happen to know the dogs. In the case of the ones that I noted... I know both the breeders and on some of the lists we all post and talk when one of ours crosses the Rainbow Bridge... and those of us that have web sites will usually note it on there too. If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at.....

Thanks. I might do that after I meet the breeder this week. Right now, I'm doing as Ivoss suggested and looking through the reverse pedigrees and comparing with the OFA site.

[tanza]

Thanks. I might do that after I meet the breeder this week. Right now, I'm doing as Ivoss suggested and looking through the reverse pedigrees and comparing with the OFA site.

Always a good thing to do.....

[YodelDogs]

I just wanted to mention......OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.

[tanza]

I just wanted to mention......OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.

That is correct, Penn Hip does not have an online database.. however if a breeder were to tell you that they have had hips done using Penn Hip, I would think they have some type of certificate with the results. So if a breeder were to say to me that they used Penn Hip, I would ask to see or get a copy of that certificate.

Also, note that many breeders will say "I had the hips xray'ed and my Vet said they were fine"... Your regular Vet can not and does not read these xrays and many time what they think is totally different the the 3 Vets that read the results for OFA. I have heard Vets say, "Oh these are good or excellent" only to get back a "fair" from OFA. Or can be the other way... "oh these will be rated good" and come back excellent... And I would question people that do that because you can mark the OFA form for Hips/Elbows that if the dog doesn't pass and is determined Dyplastic that the results are not made public.

[lvoss]

I just wanted to mention......OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.
Actually breeders who want to use PennHip and would like those results published can submit the results and a recording fee to OFA and they will be recorded in the public database. There is no reason why results should not be publicly accessible unless a breeder chooses to not make them so by not submitting them with the recording fee. Same goes for CERF, there are still many who do not submit their fee to make them public which is a loss for the whole breeding community.

[Nemo]

If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at.....

Tanza,
I'm going to send you an email about this today. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your knowledge regarding the pedigrees. Puppies are going to be born soon, and I need to make a decision regarding which breeder I want to go with. This is getting to be a little more stressful than I wanted it to be!

Clay

[tanza]

Tanza,
I'm going to send you an email about this today. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your knowledge regarding the pedigrees. Puppies are going to be born soon, and I need to make a decision regarding which breeder I want to go with. This is getting to be a little more stressful than I wanted it to be!

Clay

Sure, no problem. Just go to my homepage (website) and email link is there.

[nomrbddgs]

Breeding a dog under one year is IMO not quite right. I don't know if I would even go with a prelim that young. There is a reason the OFA won't cert dogs under two years-their bones are not fully developed. Even a prelim under that age IMO cannot be an exact science. And yes, I do know breeders that have used dogs under a year. It's just not for me. For one thing, while many dogs look good young, as they age they lose the 'it' factor. This can be said for dogs that look terrible when they are young and age beautifully. But I would rather have it this way than breed too young. Just because they are 'reputable' breeders or are listed does not mean it's good practice.

[sharronhurlbut]

Do let us know what you decide re this breeder.

[tanza]

While I don't typically like to use young dogs.. but if or/when I would considering there are many other things that would come into a decision... again, as I said before, one important thing I would look at is the ages of parents, grand parents, great grandparents... and the health testing on them and by looking at a vertical pedigree...

[khanis]

I completely agree with Pat on this one.
I know that Pam/Sheila [Eldorado] used our Rocket Man last year.
They bred him to a clear bitch, and were really hoping for more than the 1 clear that they got... Sean [RWD at the national] was their clear pup.
So, they pre-limmed Sean this year and used him on two bitches; for one, it was her last litter and a way for them to continue forward with these bloodlines and producing all clear puppies.
I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with this.... they did the health testing... the dam herself is older and Sean's sire turned 14 last month.
The pedigree is laden with health-testing WITH GOOD RESULTS.

It is completely different than the PP mentioning using a young male that wasn't pre-limmed, and although the sire is I think she said 12, has produced enough HD to make using this dog WITHOUT pre-lim testing quite risky.
Sure, it can be done, but why make it so there could be potential problems in unborn pups? It's better to give them the best possible start in life that you can.
And, since a pup over six months old can be pre-limmed, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSES for not having it done!!!

I also agree that you do not trust someone saying "my vet looked at them and they are fine" Sorry, if you are willing to put the $150-300 into the health-testing you are just not going to balk at the miniscule $35 to have an OFA certification number for your results!