What is your Definition of a Line?

[lvoss]

I often see people use the word line but sometimes wonder if we all mean the same thing when we use it.

I have been lucky to have several very long time breeders as friends and mentors. In talking with them, most have expressed a sadness in the loss of true lines. Not breeders getting out of the breed but the loss of distinct look that lines used to have in the breed. In years past, they could sit ringside and didn't need a catalog to know where a dog came from, you could identify a dog's line by its look. Sitting ringside now, it is not so easy to that. There are some that have maintained a true line but many dogs have what I call a "Generic Pedigree" different mixes of the same popular sires and dams.

I have based my breeding program primarily on the Kenset line, through my Sherwood foundation and have mixed in the Tamsala line and the Brushy Run Avongara line. I don't know that I will ever have a distinct line of my own it, I just don't see that I will ever breed enough to get to that point but plan to make the best of other breeder's hard work. When I look at a picture pedigree of a Kenset dog, Tamsala dog, or a Brushy Run Avongara, I see strong family resemblance, they produce consistently which I think are important characteristics of a line.

What does everyone else think? What do you think the characteristics of a line are versus just having a breeding program?

[nomrbddgs]

When I look at the 'line' I look at the characteristics familiar in each breeding. The head, squareness, eyes, ears, etc. For example, if I look at the Kenset line, there are consistencies in the head shape, ear set, body type, stop, etc. and these have been carried down. I'm also trying to breed what I see now, with what I have seen in the past. This is a bit harder, since we have few pictures. I would like to see some pictures of the Prune, but I don't know if that's possible.

[lvoss]

There are a couple of pictures of Prune on Mary Lou's website, http://kensetbasenjis.homestead.com/InTheBeginning.html

I am pretty sure in old issues of The Basenji Magazine there are more pics of him.

[nomrbddgs]

Okay, got it Lisa, so you see the head? Ear set? Stop? Eye contour? Muzzle? Squareness? The tuck up? The tail curl? The appearance of the leg length? His colour if fabulous. This is what I see in the Kenset line. What I want to continue because I see this in almost every Kenset dog. Nicky has the same structure, so does Shadow. They are the same for the male head. This is what I the line means to me. Continuity.

The other part is what we are losing as the line comes down. Side wrinkles, we see very little of them anymore. Sugar has the side wrinkles. We're seeing different feet as well.

Unfortunately I only have a few older mags. I'll have to see if someone up here has any, I'm pretty sure I know one that does.

[sharronhurlbut]

I can't add to this topic, but I sure do enjoy reading what you all are writing.

[nomrbddgs]

Ahh, but Sharron, you have seen a lot of Basenji's, you probably have noticed characteristics familiar to you when you are looking at them. Maybe a pointier face, rounder eyes, nose colour, coat colour, etc. You probably just never thought about it until it was pointed out!

[sharronhurlbut]

Yes, and I think they all are beautiful! laugh...
I do apprecaite the PNW breeders who can help me find out if a stray basenji belongs to any special line or breeder.
Some can look at a dog and say, "oh, that looks like the XYZ line!"
Its very helpful.

[Quercus]

I love Prune. I think he was an awesome dog. He is behind three of my dogs.

[nomrbddgs]

When you start looking at dogs, you'll know what you like, and invariably find that the dog you like went back to a certain line.

[nomrbddgs]

And, Andrea, do you find similarities?

[Robin_n_Jack]

Just out of curiosity....is temperament figured into a "line"? Or is that not something that is genetically handed down?

[nomrbddgs]

I've found it can be progress down through the 'line'. I've seen some nasty dogs from the same lines in different parts of the countries.

[lvoss]

I think temperament is one of the traits that can make a line distinct from others. There is definitely an inherited component to temperament but it will also be influenced by environment especially early socialization.

This year, I leased TC who is primarily a blend of Kenset and Tamsala lines. I see in her many behavior traits that she has in common with my own dogs who all have Kenset lines behind them. Such as, TC and Nicky both love to open cabinets and go exploring. They also rub their faces on their beds the same way after eating certain meals.

[nomrbddgs]

Oh, that's funny Lisa! Shadow opens cupboards and doors and Sugar is the rubber on beds! So again, Kenset lines.

[YodelDogs]

To me, a "line" is created through multiple generations of linebreeding and inbreeding which is generally accompanied by a distinct "type" that is discernable by experienced eyes.

For many years, in my area, it was easy to tell who the breeder of a dog was just by looking at that animal. Kenset, Serengeti, Candu, and UnderCover each has their own unique look that set them apart from everyone else. Today, it is not so easy to tell.

I had my first litter 16 years ago and my 6th generation is currently "in the oven". My dogs are closely linebred yet I do get a range of overall type. Do I fit my own criteria for a "line"? I am not sure I would say yes at this point but I plan to continue to work towards it.

[tanza]

However, you need to keep in mind when you are tightly breeding a line you can keep developing poor conformation faults, just line temperament. One of the biggest problems I see in Basenjis today is poor fronts and in particular, straight fronts, with poor movement.

[Kebasmom]

Has there been loss of "body since the late 70's?

[tanza]

Has there been loss of "body since the late 70's?

What do you mean by loss of body?

[Robin_n_Jack]

Thanks so much! It is really interesting to read the opinion and thought that goes in to all of your breeding plans.

[Quercus]

And, Andrea, do you find similarities?

Yes, particularly with Querk...great ear shape and set, nice shaped head, lots and lots of wrinkle. There is a lot of other lines mixed in there with him...but I aways thought I could see a lot of the Prune in him.

[tanza]

Prune was an outstanding lovely dog...

[sharronhurlbut]

So you would say that temperment is passed down in some like nice fronts or ear sets?

[tanza]

So you would say that temperment is passed down in some like nice fronts or ear sets?

Nope... can have terrible fronts and/or ear sets.... since that is conformation... temperament is temperament .... can come in Basenjis that do not have correct conformation.. or ones that do.... but in breeding you have to consider all... health and temperament at the top of the list... and then you figure in conformation... it comes as a package when you are breeding correctly.. IMO...

[sharronhurlbut]

Ok, I said it wrong, I understand you can correct ear set or physical "whatever" with adding a new line to help...but with a bad temperment...does that also correct? Or is it likely to be passed on by breeding a bad temperment b to one who is mellow?

[sharronhurlbut]

Heavens, that is even worse.
I am asking, with a bad temperment but correct b, can you mellow the pups out by adding a correct and sweet line to it?

[lvoss]

Just like some dogs are prepotent for a certain physical trait they can also be prepotent for their temperament, good or bad. So if you breed a dog with an iffy temperament to a good temperament it could go either way. But the problem is that the bad temperament could pop up in later generations even if it is not in that generation.

[sharronhurlbut]

Resessive trait then?

[YodelDogs]

Temperament is partially inherited and partially created through how the dog is raised.

Sharon, if I understood your question, you are asking if you can soften a strong tempered line by crossing to a mellow line. Yes and no. Crossing extremes such as a very dominant animal to a very laid back animal will not give you a litter of "middle of the road" pups. You will get all areas of the spectrum. For example, my foundation bitch Keiko was a headstrong pain in the butt. Not aggressive or dominant, just headstrong and determined. I bred her to a male Hawk who was calm tempered and had many easy going relatives. I had two total pain in the butt pups, one leaning towards pain in the butt, and two easy to live with pups. I took the easy to live with bitch and bred her to a Kenset male Hans. Hans had many generations of selective breeding for mellow temperament behind him. Linebreeding on the easier to live with dogs has helped to set this type of temperament in my dogs but they are still Basenjis and can be a handful at times.

[lvoss]

Resessive trait then?
It is more complex, temperament is a combination of several traits. So it sort of depends on how it all comes together.

Like the Kenset temperaments are mellow and I am very happy with my my Kenset descendants but Nicky has never really liked his crate, in talking with Andrea I think that Querk is much the same. I think this is may be inherited, both Nicky and Querk have Prune as a common ancestor. And yet Rally, Nicky's niece has always loved her crate so it isn't all the descendants who have it.

[sharronhurlbut]

Thank you, yes, that that was what I was asking.
Ok, next uneducated question...if you have a mean, but show b, and breed him to mellow, mellow, mellow, is there ever a point where the recessive doesn't show up? say 3 or 5 generations later...
Or can it always show up..

[lvoss]

The thing with a recessive trait is that it "hide" for many generations and then crop up. Also because temperament is influenced by socialization, good socialization can help with some issues so that it can be difficult to assess exactly what you have genetically.

[sharronhurlbut]

Thank you, that is what I was asking and had a tough job of it.
I appreicate you all being kind to me re this subject.

[nomrbddgs]

Yes, particularly with Querk...great ear shape and set, nice shaped head, lots and lots of wrinkle. There is a lot of other lines mixed in there with him...but I aways thought I could see a lot of the Prune in him.

Yes, I'm finding the head has consistently come through.

[nomrbddgs]

Yes, particularly with Querk...great ear shape and set, nice shaped head, lots and lots of wrinkle. There is a lot of other lines mixed in there with him...but I aways thought I could see a lot of the Prune in him.

Yes, I'm finding the head has consistently come through. When I first started showing Shadow up in Canada, I had one judge say to me afterwards that this type of head is being lost and that it was nice to see that type of head again.

[nomrbddgs]

It is more complex, temperament is a combination of several traits. So it sort of depends on how it all comes together.

Like the Kenset temperaments are mellow and I am very happy with my my Kenset descendants but Nicky has never really liked his crate, in talking with Andrea I think that Querk is much the same. I think this is may be inherited, both Nicky and Querk have Prune as a common ancestor. And yet Rally, Nicky's niece has always loved her crate so it isn't all the descendants who have it.

Sugar and Shadow are the same line and come down from the same, especially as Nicky, line. However, Sugar is much worse in the crate than Shadow.

[Quercus]

Temperament is not inherited in a simple pattern. As everyone has mentioned environment has a huge impact on inherited temperament. Some things that can effect a dog's temperament that probably are hard wired are prey drive, arousal threshold and ability to problem solve. Generally in Basenjis all of these things are high...which is what makes them more difficult to live with, but there is variation within the breed too.

With our six dogs, three are from one line, and three from another...I can see which behavior(s) have been passed down thru their lines. One group is very closely related...the other group two are closely related and the other individual in that group is fairly outcrossed.

I could go on and on about my observations, but most folks would be totally bored ;)

[Kebasmom]

I'm not a breeder but I was just wondering about the body thing. What I meant was were the earlier basenjis stockier?

[tanza]

I'm not a breeder but I was just wondering about the body thing. What I meant was were the earlier basenjis stockier?

Really depends on the bloodlines... some lines are... some are not... if you look at some of the pictures of very early Basenjis, you will see both body types...

[lvoss]

It can also vary greatly by region.

[YodelDogs]

Like the Kenset temperaments are mellow and I am very happy with my my Kenset descendants but Nicky has never really liked his crate, in talking with Andrea I think that Querk is much the same. I think this is may be inherited, both Nicky and Querk have Prune as a common ancestor.

I don't think I would blame Prune on the crate issues with Nicky but rather his grand-dam Keiko. Keiko panicked in a crate and I feel she was claustrophobic. As such, she was completely uncrateable her entire lifetime. Since Keiko is behind everything I have ever bred, a difficult crater will pop up here and there. The odd thing here is that some of the dogs I have placed as older puppies/young adults will crate just fine in my home but then when they change homes they become problem craters. I do not know why this happens.

[lvoss]

I don't think I would blame Prune on the crate issues with Nicky but rather his grand-dam Keiko. Keiko panicked in a crate and I feel she was claustrophobic. As such, she was completely uncrateable her entire lifetime. Since Keiko is behind everything I have ever bred, a difficult crater will pop up here and there. The odd thing here is that some of the dogs I have placed as older puppies/young adults will crate just fine in my home but then when they change homes they become problem craters. I do not know why this happens.
Though he may have inherited this trait from more than one source, I do think some of the characteristics that contribute to his crating issues probably come from the Kenset side of the pedigree. Really, it is very interesting how similarly Nicky and Querks attitudes and behaviors are, there common ancestor is Prune so I do think that some of these have been inherited from him, even if they were not traits he himself exhibited.

[Quercus]

Though he may have inherited this trait from more than one source, I do think some of the characteristics that contribute to his crating issues probably come from the Kenset side of the pedigree. Really, it is very interesting how similarly Nicky and Querks attitudes and behaviors are, there common ancestor is Prune so I do think that some of these have been inherited from him, even if they were not traits he himself exhibited.

I agree that there may be some inherited factors...Querk's mom, Glory Be was the screamer before him, and I think they said that her mom Cynosure Diana was also a screamer...but anyhow...

Not only do Querk and Nicky act similarly, they also have a lot of similar physical traits. Very leggy, similar heads, from what I remember from photos. But I think part of their behavior may be similar because they have 'first son' syndrome ;) Both were the first and only dog for a few years in both families (right?)...all the attention, training, lovin, etc focused on them alone. I'm not sayin spoiled...but you know....special ;)

That is not to discount what I consider to be a definite inherited 'crate phobia' or 'confinement phobia'. I think that is a far more important behavioral trait in our breed to research than fence climbing...but ya know...nobody really asked me ;)

[tanza]

I agree that there may be some inherited factors...Querk's mom, Glory Be was the screamer before him, and I think they said that her mom Cynosure Diana was also a screamer...but anyhow...

Not only do Querk and Nicky act similarly, they also have a lot of similar physical traits. Very leggy, similar heads, from what I remember from photos. But I think part of their behavior may be similar because they have 'first son' syndrome ;) Both were the first and only dog for a few years in both families (right?)...all the attention, training, lovin, etc focused on them alone. I'm not sayin spoiled...but you know....special ;)

That is not to discount what I consider to be a definite inherited 'crate phobia' or 'confinement phobia'. I think that is a far more important behavioral trait in our breed to research than fence climbing...but ya know...nobody really asked me ;)

Interesting you bring up screamers... Tego (DC Tanza's Tego) is a screamer, sire is Ch Jerlin's Reckless Ricochett (which I believe is also Cynosure Diana's Grandsire on the bottom of the pedigree)... however, Tego's uncle on his dam's side (Dam is DC Zuri's Ti-Tanza Wazi Ajabu) was a screamer totally.... so hard to say what side of the pedigree it comes from...

[lvoss]

Not only do Querk and Nicky act similarly, they also have a lot of similar physical traits. Very leggy, similar heads, from what I remember from photos. But I think part of their behavior may be similar because they have 'first son' syndrome ;) Both were the first and only dog for a few years in both families (right?)...all the attention, training, lovin, etc focused on them alone. I'm not sayin spoiled...but you know....special ;)

Yes, they do both share similiar physical traits too. I do think the leggy look comes from that side and Nicky definitely has a Kenset head. They are both first sons so similar environmental factors could also be at play. Though my mom's boy Cole, Rally's son, who also shares the same behavioral traits and is a "first son", both Pat and I knew at 4 weeks old he was going to be like that no matter what home he went into.

[myran]

Linebreeding has been forbidden here our dog´s can be maximum 6,25% related counting on 5 generations.So can one see from which kennel certain dog´s come from yes on can as their breeders tend to choose a certain type of basenji over and over again.Also typewise one can see a difference between aussie and american basenjis I prefer a mix of those two types.But isn´t the most important to follow the breed standard so that we keep the basenji true to it´s origins.

[nomrbddgs]

Yes, I try to follow breed standard when choosing which dog I will breed to, but we also must consider temperment, and movement which you don't see by a picture. But, we are losing a lot by mixing too many lines as well. We have an old rule of thumb, I at least, try to follow-it's twice in, once out. That means bread in the line twice and then do an outcross. A lot of the dogs, everywhere, are losing certain things such as a good front and a stop and I'm finding we are getting some big feet and ears as well as large dogs period. This is MO only.

[myran]

True Arlene good temperament and has passed all health tests,moves soundly the way a Basenji should are of utmost importance.It´s no good if the dog stacks perfectly when he´ll fall apart whilst gaiting.We have also the problem with too straight upperarms and crappy fronts which are sooo difficult to breed in one´s their gone.