This Was All Preventable

[lvoss]

Over the last few months we have had many new basenji owners and perspective basenji owners who have got their puppies from breeders who did not test for Fanconi prior to breeding. Some of said, it is OK they are going to test the puppies and hope for the best.

I was looking at OFA results this morning and here are some really sad results for baby puppies.

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1352710#animal
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1351152#animal
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1351156#animal
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1349550#animal
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1351154#animal

[tanza]

Very sad.... and I wonder how many more of the same litter have not been tested, since in this group there are 2 sibs and 3 sibs all testing postive.

[lvoss]

Yes, I wondered with some of the results if the only puppies that were tested in some of the litters were the ones where the perspective owner demanded it. What about the other puppies and their new owners?

It is just very, very sad. It is the reason that we are so adamant about ALL dogs should be tested BEFORE breeding.

[renaultf1]

Really sad...I can't imagine getting a pup with that result...now that it is avoidable. Of course, I also can't imagine rolling the dice and "hoping for the best."

All for a savings of $300 or $400....and sometimes not even that.

[tanza]

I wonder if one of these tested pups is from the person in TX that was selling cutiepie her puppy?

[tanza]

I was just looking at the site also (OFA) and wow, just look at the number that are carriers too... if these are coming from BYB breeders and being sold without spay/neuter just think if they are bred to another carrier what will happen.... and especially if the breeders are not explaining about Fanconi.

[lvoss]

I was wondering the same thing since the one litter is Continental Kennel Club registered and the age is about right.

[lvoss]

Yes, though some of the litters I am pretty sure are repsonsible breeders who did Carrier to Clear breedings and ended up with more Carriers than Clears in the litter.

[tanza]

Yes, though some of the litters I am pretty sure are repsonsible breeders who did Carrier to Clear breedings and ended up with more Carriers than Clears in the litter.

Yes, and at least they are testing the pups..... the responsible breeders to know what is what, instead of testing pups with untested parents to see what is "maybe" affected

[lvoss]

I see that the parents of one litter that was being considered by some on this forum were tested and both came back Carriers so some of those Affected puppies may be from that litter.

[nomrbddgs]

Ouch. So sad.

[lvoss]

I should also add, remember Buyer Beware, for those who are using websites like Puppy Find to shop for puppies. Three of those Affected puppies are listed there at a reduced price with no mention of their Affected status.

[Vanessa]

Oah man oah man. :(
It really makes me angry to see this. Breeders so eager to have litters and not testing. These poor puppies. Breaks my heart. :(

[tanza]

I should also add, remember Buyer Beware, for those who are using websites like Puppy Find to shop for puppies. Three of those Affected puppies are listed there at a reduced price with no mention of their Affected status.

And three others from the litter are Carriers, so if someone took and bred them without testing, could be breeding to a Carrier or Affected and produce more possible sick puppies.....

[tanza]

Oah man oah man. :(
It really makes me angry to see this. Breeders so eager to have litters and not testing. These poor puppies. Breaks my heart. :(

And I don't think it is "eager" to have litters, but more like "eager" to try and make money by not spending the money to health test. And I agree, those poor pups... and the people that might purchase them without knowing what they are getting. What heartbreak....

[bellabasenji]

Terrible, terrible, terrible sad...:(

[wizard]

So how do we educate the general public, particularly those who "just don't have the time to do research" not to buy from such places? I can't list here all the people I've come across who's kid just wanted a dog so bad and who ended up with disasters that then ended up in shelters. So sad.

[tanza]

So how do we educate the general public, particularly those who "just don't have the time to do research" not to buy from such places? I can't list here all the people I've come across who's kid just wanted a dog so bad and who ended up with disasters that then ended up in shelters. So sad.

All we can do is reach out and try and get the word out. This is exactly why people like lvoss and I are so pasionate about testing.... If we can reach one person, that is one that will not hopefully suffer the heartbrake of buying a possible sick puppy.....

Personal websites are great to educate... you don't have to be a breeder to get the word out... just an updated site (and many are free).... and direct people to find a responsible breeder. Put the links on how to find a responsible breeder....

[lvoss]

Pat is right, the best thing people can do is help to get the word out about the test, how to check for yourself that testing has been done, how to find a responsible breeder and just what it is like to own a basenji.

Here is a really nice website by a basenji pet owner, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/9467/thebasenji.html

If you are more of the blogger type, add links to the Basenji Health Endowment site and OFA. These sorts of things do help and the more people see it the more likely it will sink in.

[Nemo]

If you google "basenji" the wikipedia link comes up first and is in the top several entries in some of the other search engines.

It's a small thing, but modifying the wikipedia entry for basenji to be more descriptive of how horrible Fanconi is and more strongly wording it about the importance of testing may help the casual reader looking into the breed be more wary of it.

I don't know if you can do it any more and I'm not a internet search expert, but if you could effectively "google bomb" a "basenji" search so that it comes up to a site that talks about the importance of fanconi testing in one of the top few links it would reach a lot more people.

[lvoss]

For those who would like to try creating their own website, here is one a free webhost that doesn't use banner ads on their free sites.

http://www.synthasite.com/

[bellabasenji]

Thank you, I might give that a go sometime!

[moetmum]

How sad, it doesn't have to happen now we can test.

Most people in the UK are testing and not allowing their dogs to be used on anything not tested. Its the only way forward for our breed.

Would the new owners be able to do anything legally if their pup was affected and it could have been prevented?

[lvoss]

If the breeder knew the puppy was Affected or knew that the parents were both carriers and therefore Affected puppies were a possibility and the breeder does not inform the buyer of this prior to the time of sale then yes, in most states they buyer can sue.

[dmcarty]

The people who complain the most about people who talk about the importance of testing and many times have been convinced by their 'breeder' that what we all are talking about is bunk.

I try to take the time to tell people that puppymills don't call themselves that, back yard breeders don't call themselves that - people who are selling you puppies are kind, friendly and sweet - they just don't see the need to test their dogs because "they've never had any problems".

I bought my first puppy from exactly where I shouldn't have and before the internet and the ability to research, I had no way of not believing these great people. Who were really not great. I always figure if I can get fooled - and I thought I did a good job looking for puppies in the right places - anyone can.

I am so sad for those puppies and the families that get them without knowing.

[bellabasenji]

...people who are selling you puppies are kind, friendly and sweet...I had no way of not believing these great people...Who were really not great...

Yes, and this is the difference between great "salesmen" and great breeders. Salesmen are your best friend when they are trying to get you to buy something... irregardless of the quality of the product they sell.

Great breeders are in it for the breed... the quality of the "product" is of the utmost importance.

I know I haven't been at this too long, but it didn't take me long to figure that out. I wish the general public would understand this, too.

The puppy store we bought Bella from didn't care who my husband was, they did not have him fill out any paperwork about how we could care for a puppy, if we had other pets, if we had a fenced yard and if not how would we exercise the dog. The paperwork we did fill out was "all about the money." How much of a down payment we could afford, amount of monthly payments, and how much money we make so they could see if the loan company would lend to us...

It is so sad that they only care about the money...:mad:

[tanza]

It is sad and add in the people who "claim"... "we are a family home just raising some pups"... right... for the money that is....

And for the breeders on this list (responsible ones) notice how many try to sell anyone puppies on this forum? None.... We push about testing only to make people aware of how important it is and how to find a responsible breeder, not trying to push our pups that we might have. We typically have reservations for the pups before we even breed....

[richandapril]

I think our breeders were clueless about this disease! We got ours in Texas, they never told us anything about it. We're learning about it as we go.

[tanza]

I think our breeders were clueless about this disease! We got ours in Texas, they never told us anything about it. We're learning about it as we go.

That is a problem or even if they do know, they choose to stick their heads in the sand and pretend like they don't... or as is in most cases, they do not want to test because it takes away from the profit.

[ComicDom1]

While most likely a pipe dream, if there was a way to lobby and get a bill authored in regard to known diseases in breeds require mandatory health testing that would be a step in the right direction. The next problem would be enforcement of that health testing. At this point, we cannot even shut down the puppy mills and even if we could, how would we find all the back yard breeders. On top of this add to the issues the rescue and re-homing of dogs that are placed but not completely tested for all known existing diseases prior to that placement.

Clearly there are many many issues that exist. So what is the best way to combat these things and fight back. I think clearly what lvoss, Tanza, and others have stated is right now the best way to be effective is to be pro active and spread the word through websites, conversations, blogs, and what ever public means possible. If you are a member of a local dog club that meets do they address these types of issues on a regular basis. Can it be added to the agenda so its addressed occasionally. In addition can we find a way to bring pressure on the rescue organizations and placement agencies to test for Fanconi and other health issues so they might be disclosed to any perspective person considering the adoption on an animal.

Even considering everything above, what should really happen to the affected dogs. Should Fanconi affected Dogs be euthanized? Its this a more humane type of solution? Sure this is a horrible solution but how does it really compare to the life that these dogs might be subjected to. This I think is topic that seriously needs to be debated.

Jason

[tanza]

With Fanconi dogs there is no one solution... some of them really do well on the protocol and have no problem with the 10 to 40 pills a day... I do not believe they should be euthanized unless they 1. do not do well on the protocol and 2. Will not willing take the medication whether it be by "forcing" the pills down or by hiding it in the food. Then you need to evaluate the quality of life and at some point make that decision. But many of us have to make that hard decision as our kids age and have any kind of health problems that requires medication or treatment that may be less then pleasant. And not everyone is up to the challenge for a Fanconi dog, so again the decision to euthanize is never an easy one.
As far as testing before a rescue is place, I think if you go back through many of the threads, you will see that I full agree that they do... IMO, it is not fair to place a rescue dog with someone without full disclosure of possible health concerns. While prior to the DNA test the only tool we had was strip testing so it was always a crap shot... but now to place a dog only giving the knowledge that he/she is not spilling at that time is not fair to the dog or the person that adopting. And to say, "well they can test if they want".. it is like buying a puppy, you become attached... so great you get a rescue, you test and find out that he/she is DNA Fanconi Affected... now what? 99% of the time they will keep the dog, but it will put a sour taste in their mouths that had they known they most likely would not have taken that particular dog. And that of course is the reason they don't test them... because they say they will not be able to place them... and that is a problem... So as Jason brings up, what is the best solution... I surely don't know, but I know that I believe that placing rescues without testing is wrong

[lvoss]

While most likely its a pipe dream, if there was a way to lobby and get a bill authored in regard to know diseases in breeds require mandatory health testing that would be a step in the right direction. The next problem would be enforcement of that health testing. At this point, we cannot even shut down the puppy mills and even if we could, how would we find all the back yard breeders. On top of this add to the issues the rescue and re-homing of dogs that are placed but not completely tested for all known existing diseases prior to that placement.


Because every breed is different it really is not practical to try to legislate health testing. What some states have done is to put in place puppy lemon laws that include state something along the line that a breeder just disclose of all known hereditary issues prior to sale or breeder is responsible for any hereditary disorder that they knew of and did not disclose or should reasonably have been aware of. The should reasonably be aware of is to try to cover instances where breeders are just not testing so they can say they didn't know or where both parents had the disease and they said that since there were no DNA tests they couldn't really know if the offspring would have it.

[khanis]

Even considering everything above, what should really happen to the affected dogs. Should Fanconi affected Dogs be euthanized? Its this a more humane type of solution? Sure this is a horrible solution but how does it really compare to the life that these dogs might be subjected to. This I think is topic that seriously needs to be debated.
Jason


I think that Parry (Jaadi), Tracy (Data), Susan (Nate), myself and many others would agree that they would NOT hate traded their Fanconi Affected dogs for the world.
Had we known of their affliction before they were bred, we all would have bred them in different directions.
But, I for one, would HATE to see this kind of thing become a law.
There is already a bill trying to be passed (in Oregon) so there is no line-breeding within several generations.
I find this total crap and would hate for it to happen.
While I do agree with many of the bills about limiting the number of dogs (I truly believe that no person needs up to 50 dogs), I don't think one should legislate how I follow my hobby.

Educating the public is the best thing we can do.
With the day and age of the internet, there is NO reason for someone to say that they did not learn about Fanconi Syndrome prior to purchasing their basenji.

With the number of ads out that talk about Fanconi, there is no reason for folks to be *in the dark* about it.

[Basenjimamma]

How the public can be "clueless" about this is very hard to believe. Just google Basenji and all the websites that pull up will have info on Fanconi to a certain degree. Yes you might have to click on that button once you are on the website but as a buyer wouldn't you want to find out everything you can about the breed? Of course you would...but living here in the states as a foreigner (swede) I have to admit it is very "easy" to just buy and oops it didn't work out..."forget". So many people buy any dog or cat or whatever animal because it is just so darn cute, and then reality kicks in and the puppy or whatever is not cute anymore now it is destructive ( ie bored), it got bigger than I thought (?), or it has an ailment I didn't know they could get....what do you mean. We need to educate people responsibility about animals in general regardless of what breed it is. Do your homework and the make a educated desicion on whether you would be a good NO GREAT pet owner. It is horrible,all these animals in shelters all over the country.

Basenjimamma

[dmcarty]

If you don't test - then you don't know and if you don't know - you can look someone in the eye and say - "my dogs don't have that." Since many of those folks don't know where their dogs currently are and many people contact lists rather than go back to the 'breeder' - they can continue the mythg.

Rather than mandatory health testing - the best way to address it is via puppy lemon laws. Why states like it is "they don't have to do anything but pass the bill" If you say mandatory testing - that means staff and inspections etc etc.

Here is a list of puppy lemon law states - posted on the Maltese list - I do not know how current it is so there MAY be more states. If your state doesn't appear - I think that trying to get it passed is a good thing. It ONLY allows the owner to take the breeder to small claims court to recoup the health expenses - up to the price of the dog.

http://www.malteseonly.com/lemon.html

[ComicDom1]

Yes Lemon laws can be great if they are effective. How long is the time limit on those lemon laws. If it takes a Basenji 3 years or more to develop symptoms of Fanconi or any other disease then does that lemon law apply?

Is that breeder, or back yard breeder, or pet shop still going to be in business 3 years or more down the road?

What do lemon laws really do to stop irresponsible breeders from passing on genetic disorders from one generation to another as long as they are able to stay in business?

How many people are really going to complain?

Just think about how many people forget to mail in rebates. The companies issuing the rebates are counting on this. So if there is a time limit or restriction then for that irresponsible breeder, it might be worth the financial risk.

In my opinion, lemon laws just allow some financial recovery for the buyer if he or she catching things in time. It does not heal the heart over the loss of that animal, and it also may not be a big enough deterrent.

Just my thoughts

Jason

[dmcarty]

Typically it is for one year - so the new owner can get the puppy tested way before 3 years - I have recommended that course of action many times - at least 4 people I know of have used it successfully.

Is it perfect - nope - is it easy to use yes, do some people decide it's too much work yes. You are NEVER going to get all people to do what is right all the time but you have to start somewhere. The media in MN loves to find out about puppy lemon law violations and bad press hurts more than anything.

RE: Broken Heart - nope - BUT - that's life we can be pretty sure that we will be sad at some time.

[lvoss]

What do lemon laws really do to stop irresponsible breeders from passing on genetic disorders from one generation to another as long as they are able to stay in business?

How many people are really going to complain?


The first time I heard of the lemon law in California was during a news segment about a BYB who had a class action law suit filed against them. It was filed against the individual breeder not a company so I don't think the "stay in business" really applies. The dysplastic pups produced ranged in age from 2 years old and 4 years old. She had repeated the breeding several times both parents were dysplastic and puppies from the first litter had been reported as dysplastic before several of the litters were bred.

The interviewed 5 different owners for the news segment. So lemon laws can be effective IF people know about them and file complaints but again it is all about education.

[sharronhurlbut]

This sueing bad breeders might just work, if it was successful and made public.

[ComicDom1]

The first time I heard of the lemon law in California was during a news segment about a BYB who had a class action law suit filed against them. It was filed against the individual breeder not a company so I don't think the "stay in business" really applies. The dysplastic pups produced ranged in age from 2 years old and 4 years old. She had repeated the breeding several times both parents were dysplastic and puppies from the first litter had been reported as dysplastic before several of the litters were bred.

The interviewed 5 different owners for the news segment. So lemon laws can be effective IF people know about them and file complaints but again it is all about education.

I think we need to be realistic and accept the fact that individual can come and go just as puppy mills come and go. While the reasons may be different that either one ceases to exist it does happen.

As has been mentioned there may be time limits involved in regard to lemon laws and depending on your breed and the time for a particular disease varies.

While I am not shooting down education at all, I find I have to compare how education has impacted other areas of our lives and how ineffective it can be. Education has not stopped teen pregnancy. Education has not stopped the spread of Aids, Diabetes, Drug use, or Alcoholism. While some might consider this statement extreme, law enforcement, and penalties have not stopped crime or murder.

I guess what I am attempting to say is that unless a very tight control of any given situation is taken, there is no real effective way of preventing those situations from happening. Even when tight control and severe penalties apply, people will continue to violate others as long as they feel that can get away with it.

Jason

[lvoss]

I am going to have to disagree with you. There is no solution that is 100% effective but the studies that have been done related to the topics you have mentioned do show that education does work. Some education is more effective than others and often controversy about what should be taught decreases the efficacy of education.

I am also going to be a little harsh here and say that there are also plenty of people out there who get dogs from irresponsible breeders because they are bargain hunting, don't want to answer responsible breeders questions, refuse to wait, etc. For those people, you get what you pay for, not just monetarily but in the effort you are willing to expend on an endeavor. At some point people have to take responsibility for their choices and actions.

[renaultf1]

I am going to have to disagree with you. There is no solution that is 100% effective but the studies that have been done related to the topics you have mentioned do show that education does work. Some education is more effective than others and often controversy about what should be taught decreases the efficacy of education.

I am also going to be a little harsh here and say that there are also plenty of people out there who get dogs from irresponsible breeders because they are bargain hunting, don't want to answer responsible breeders questions, refuse to wait, etc. For those people, you get what you pay for, not just monetarily but in the effort you are willing to expend on an endeavor. At some point people have to take responsibility for their choices and actions.

+1.

To me, ineffective would be 0% change or a negative %. Even +1% is a positive outcome. It might not be the number we want or think should be the result, but again, things take time to catch on...Rome wasn't built in a day. The lemon laws are a step in the right direction, IMHO...especially if it gets even a handful of bybs or puppymills to think about what they are doing and stop.

To that end, there are people on this forum that have purchased from petstores (puppymills and/or bybs) or bybs that now know they made a mistake and now know the difference between a responsible breeder and byb. I seriously doubt that now armed with the proper education they would opt to go their original route again...no matter how wonderful their pet. So if it stops even a handful of people on here from making the same mistake, then, to me, the education has been effective.

Lisa, while some may think what you said as harsh about cut rate pricing and immediate gratification, I completely agree with what you said. It is the elephant in the room and needs to be said.

[ComicDom1]

I am going to have to disagree with you. There is no solution that is 100% effective but the studies that have been done related to the topics you have mentioned do show that education does work. Some education is more effective than others and often controversy about what should be taught decreases the efficacy of education.

I am also going to be a little harsh here and say that there are also plenty of people out there who get dogs from irresponsible breeders because they are bargain hunting, don't want to answer responsible breeders questions, refuse to wait, etc. For those people, you get what you pay for, not just monetarily but in the effort you are willing to expend on an endeavor. At some point people have to take responsibility for their choices and actions.

I do not have any problem with you disagreeing with me. After all that is the point of discussion.

I do not think you are being harsh at all and I find it a positive thing to directly and honestly address what you see as the root of the problem. I think we need more of this and not less of it. Its almost like we are so concerned about hurting someone's feelings that we bite our lips and do not share how we really feel.

Thanks at least for stepping forward and doing so.

Jason

[Tayda_Lenny]

I think Euthanizing a dog that is diagnosed with Fanconi is a bit harsh - but requiring them to be spayed/neutered would achieve the same effect, no? Which is not allowing them to produce any Fanconi affected (or carrier) offspring.

If someone tried to make me put Tayda down cause she has Fanconi I would have to beat them up. :)

[moetmum]

I think Euthanizing a dog that is diagnosed with Fanconi is a bit harsh - but requiring them to be spayed/neutered would achieve the same effect, no? Which is not allowing them to produce any Fanconi affected (or carrier) offspring.

If someone tried to make me put Tayda down cause she has Fanconi I would have to beat them up. :)

I wouldn't either unless it was absolutely in their best interest, quality of life would be the major factor, I wouldn't neuter mine, the risk would worry me if they were already compromised, I have mum, two sons and a daughter who I wouldn't mate either so I can't see why the circumstances would be any different.

[Quercus]

I think Euthanizing a dog that is diagnosed with Fanconi is a bit harsh - but requiring them to be spayed/neutered would achieve the same effect, no? Which is not allowing them to produce any Fanconi affected (or carrier) offspring.

If someone tried to make me put Tayda down cause she has Fanconi I would have to beat them up. :)

Of course....it is a little ridiculous to suggest putting Fanconi affected animals down when their quality of life is still good. Why would anyone put a beloved pet to sleep when they were still enjoying life? Maybe I missed something, but I don't really understand this suggestion?

[Tayda_Lenny]

I was responding to this post.... I also think that mandatory euthanasia after diagnosis would deter pet owners from getting their dogs tested and diagnosed properly.

While most likely a pipe dream, if there was a way to lobby and get a bill authored in regard to known diseases in breeds require mandatory health testing that would be a step in the right direction. The next problem would be enforcement of that health testing. At this point, we cannot even shut down the puppy mills and even if we could, how would we find all the back yard breeders. On top of this add to the issues the rescue and re-homing of dogs that are placed but not completely tested for all known existing diseases prior to that placement.

Clearly there are many many issues that exist. So what is the best way to combat these things and fight back. I think clearly what lvoss, Tanza, and others have stated is right now the best way to be effective is to be pro active and spread the word through websites, conversations, blogs, and what ever public means possible. If you are a member of a local dog club that meets do they address these types of issues on a regular basis. Can it be added to the agenda so its addressed occasionally. In addition can we find a way to bring pressure on the rescue organizations and placement agencies to test for Fanconi and other health issues so they might be disclosed to any perspective person considering the adoption on an animal.

Even considering everything above, what should really happen to the affected dogs. Should Fanconi affected Dogs be euthanized? Its this a more humane type of solution? Sure this is a horrible solution but how does it really compare to the life that these dogs might be subjected to. This I think is topic that seriously needs to be debated.

Jason

[Quercus]

I was responding to this post.... I also think that mandatory euthanasia after diagnosis would deter pet owners from getting their dogs tested and diagnosed properly.

Oh, sorry, Michelle...I quoted your post, but I knew where you were coming from. I guess I meant it as a rhetorical question...why would anyone euthanize a dog that wasn't showing a poor quality of life?

[Tayda_Lenny]

Yeah, I dunno. Obviously if quality of life was severely compromised thats another issue - but applies for all afflictions, not just Fanconi.

Aside from the 2x/day where Tayda gets her pills, and the extra care and thought *I* have to put into what to feed her - she is just the same as she always was - my little Potato. :)

[ComicDom1]

These are the questions I asked:

Even considering everything above, what should really happen to the affected dogs. Should Fanconi affected Dogs be euthanized? Its this a more humane type of solution? Sure this is a horrible solution but how does it really compare to the life that these dogs might be subjected to. This I think is topic that seriously needs to be debated.

I am glad to see some discussion on this. Since many of us do not have experience owning and caring for a Fanconi afflicted dog, wouldn't it be beneficial for those with experience caring for these afflicted animals to share what it is like to live with and take care of these Basenji's that suffer from Fanconi?

While I realize talking about caring for your Fanconi afflicted Basenji is a very sensitive subject with painful memories for many, wouldn't it be very beneficial and educational to let those of us know who have not experienced this, understand what the day in the life of afflicted dogs and their owners is like? How bad does it actually get?

How long is long enough before it becomes evident that the quality of life is suffering?

While its always a personal decision, what do you think the deciding factors are, and how do you know when its time to let them go?

While I cannot recall the post or the author, didn't someone in this forum ask for someone to step forward who has a Fanconi affected dog and write an article of their experiences to be shared in a news letter so others share and learn? I am curious, did they ever find anyone who had a Fanconi afflicted dog to write this?

If no one has stepped up to write an article like this, then I ask, why is it that no one seems to want to talk about this experience?

Jason

[tanza]

Yes, they did... Khanis Basenjis offered her experiences to Arlene, who was the one that asked.

And every dog is different... with Fanconi.. some do well on the protocol, some do not, some will take the pills, some will not... Of the people that I know that have had or have Affected dogs, other organs in the body become affected, but again when or how long is different for each dog. Of course the organ most affected is the kidneys and usually the first to start to shut down

[Quercus]

Jennifer Hill posts here sometimes, and I am sure she would be more than happy to share her experiences with Fanconi affected dogs. I know that she has had at least two...Zippy and Missy (our Querk's sister).

It could be that no one has stepped forward because it just isn't that dramatic, if the dog does well on the protocol? If your dog takes the pills, life just goes on like normal until it doesn't work anymore. If your dog doesn't take the pills, that is a different situation, and I know several people that were miserable, and their dogs were miserable trying to force down 20 plus pills a day.

I am not sure what the animosity is towards people who haven't stepped forward to share their story?

[Tayda_Lenny]

OK here goes..... like Quercus said - it's really not that dramatic. Tayda was just diagnosed in November so it's only been about 6 months that we have been managing her Fanconi. First - the pills she is on:

1/2 pet tab plus - twice a day
1/2 pet cal - twice a day
5 bicarbs - twice a day
1 potassium tablet - twice a day
1 fish oil - once a day (not for fanconi)
1 cranberry - once a day
1 centrum complete - once a week (wednesday)
1 amino fuel - once a week (friday)
1 scoopful of yogurt with probiotics in it (to help with UTIs))

So if you add it all up - she is taking somewhere between 18 - 19 pills per day, depending on which day of the week it is, separated between two meals. The good news is, all of these pills are available over the counter and are not expensive. The bicarbs and the potassium MUST be given intact, the rest can be ground up and mixed with food, provided she eats the food.

When we first started, she was on 1 bicarb 2x day. Since the bicarbs need to be given intact so I would cover them in cream cheese and she would just eat it without inspecting them. After about a week of that, she became wise to them so now I basically have to force her to eat them. It doens't matter what I hide them in, she will spit out the pill if I give them to her to eat on her own. So, I hide them in cream cheese, pry open her mouth, wipe them on the top of her mouth and she will reluctantly swallow them. As of a few days ago, I have started hiding all 5 bicarbs and the potassium in a big glop of the yogurt and if i can get that in her mouth, she will swallow it. Sometimes she spits it all out all over the floor, and I have to quickly scoop up all the pills before Lenny eats them all, and then start over again. I could grind the rest of the pills, but since she rarely finishes her food - I have been giving her the rest of the pills the same way, in case she decides she doesn't want to eat, which is most of the time.

Her food is a mix of dry and wet food. She is super picky so I am still trying to find the right foods that she will eat consistently.

I feed her one round of pills around 7am and food right after. Usually she doesn't touch the food.

I go to work and come home around 4:30pm. I check the crate she and Lenny are in for any wet spots to see if she has peed in the crate (signs of UTI). If she does have a UTI, I call the vet to get a course of Clavamox. Which means two extra pills per day for ~10 days. Luckily the vet has just trusted me that I know what a UTI looks like in Tayda - particularly since in Fanconi dogs a urinanalysis can come up normal even if a UTI exists.

Second round of pills at 7pm and food right after.

We are still getting her blood work done every 3 months until she is stabilized. Every vet visit is around $250 for the venous blood gasses and blood chemistry panel. The vet I found that has the blood gas machine is not familiar with Fanconi so I email all of Tayda's results to Dr. Gonto directly for his recommendation.

Other than the pill/meal times, everything is normal. She plays with me and Lenny, snuggles on the couch with me, gets grouchy at Lenny and turns him over on his back, chases squirrels in the yard, all the usual stuff.

i have a fenced yard so letting her out all the time is not an issue. She does drink a lot more than before, but so far there haven't been any accidents in the house that were not connected with a UTI.

Thats about it. Like I said, aside from keeping things organized with the pills and being more cognizant of what I feed her, it's all pretty much business as usual.

Oh, except - I have pretty much written off going on vacation anywhere. There is just no one around here I trust to take care of her. Which, from a selfish standpoint, SUCKS.

[tanza]

Michelle,
Thank you for posting about Tayda... and kudos to you for the time, effort that you have put into her...
Your post bring home the point of why now that we have testing that we should never produce another Fanconi affected dog... and your experience with not being able to find a Vet that is familar with Fanconi makes your job ever harder...

It is a credit to your dedication... and to all the people that have had to deal with a Fanconi affected dog... it is not fun.... to have to worry about... every day, "how am I going to get the pills into my dog"... if not something I would ever wish on anyone... and my heart goes out to all of you that have had to do so... and found ways of doing it..

I remember when Parry found out about Jaadii spilling... he was much like Tayda... at first he could hide the pills in treats... but after a week or so, he figured that out pretty quick... they came to an understanding that he would "let" Parry shove the pills down him.. but he was not happy about it...

Michelle,
Have you tried feeding her first and then doing the pills? I only ask because my Kristii is on daily meds and I have found that if I do the pills after she eats.. she doesn't relate the pills to her regular meals.... just a thought....
And I hear you about vacation.. "what is that?"...gggg Again, my heart goes out to you... and hugs to Tayda

IMO... any time that you have to start shoving 10 to 20 pills 2x's a day into a dog.. it is totally stressful...

[agilebasenji]

if you have trouble with your dog eating, try the muttloaf.

http://www.maryshouse.us/Recipes.htm


I just suppliment my pups' regular meal with some muttloaf and they have yet to not clean their bowls. might be worth a try anyway. (i do not have a fanconi dog, but i do have a picky, picky eater.)

[ComicDom1]

Michelle,

Thanks for having the courage to post your typical day in regard to Tayda and her treatment. Maybe this will open the eyes of others who have not taken dealing with Fanconi seriously.

As anyone can see, it takes a lot of love, patience and time to cope on a daily basis.

Jason

[Tayda_Lenny]

Michelle,

Michelle,
Have you tried feeding her first and then doing the pills? I only ask because my Kristii is on daily meds and I have found that if I do the pills after she eats.. she doesn't relate the pills to her regular meals.... just a thought....
And I hear you about vacation.. "what is that?"...gggg Again, my heart goes out to you... and hugs to Tayda

IMO... any time that you have to start shoving 10 to 20 pills 2x's a day into a dog.. it is totally stressful...

I have tried separating meal times from pill times, both trying pills first and then meal - as well as meal first and then pills. It doesn't seem to matter that much. I try to do the "put it down and wait 15 minutes" and then take it from her just to make sure I'm not just training her to be pickier than she already is. I do it about 3 times throughout the evening and usually right before I'm going to sleep around 10pm she will finally eat some of her food. She hasn't lost any weight since being diagnosed and her coat still healthy and she has the same amount of energy she always has (albeit that level is - lazy most of the time). You really wouldn't know there was anything going on with her unless you looked in the cupboard full of pills in my kitchen....

[Tayda_Lenny]

if you have trouble with your dog eating, try the muttloaf.

http://www.maryshouse.us/Recipes.htm


I just suppliment my pups' regular meal with some muttloaf and they have yet to not clean their bowls. might be worth a try anyway. (i do not have a fanconi dog, but i do have a picky, picky eater.)

Well, although I'm sure Tayda (and Lenny) would LOVE this - the other thing I didnt mention is that Tayda needs a "lower" protein diet to keep her BUN and CREATININE levels down. So this recipe with 9 lbs of meat wouldn't exactly accomplish that... lol. I wish though!

[agilebasenji]

I just suppliment their food with the muttloaf - say one or two spoonfuls with the evening meal - their kibble, suppliments and warm water . I'd love to be able to feed them just that, but . . .

And I cut the recipe in 1/2 and that is still a LOT. Otherwise, you could use different meat sources - say turkey instead of beef? I don't know how different meats compare in protein levels. I'm lucky enough to usually be able to buy a 1/4 of a longhorn steer my friend raises and that beef is very, very lean. So that's also part of the reason I use this recipe. (although last time I made it, I had to use grocery store meat since she didn't have an animal ready for the butcher) But I've found it to be pretty adaptable.


When I have to pill, I use cream cheese (my boyz don't like peanut butter), but I guess you've tried that.

[Quercus]

I think that Parry (Jaadi), Tracy (Data), Susan (Nate), myself and many others would agree that they would NOT hate traded their Fanconi Affected dogs for the world.
Had we known of their affliction before they were bred, we all would have bred them in different directions.
But, I for one, would HATE to see this kind of thing become a law.
There is already a bill trying to be passed (in Oregon) so there is no line-breeding within several generations.
I find this total crap and would hate for it to happen.
While I do agree with many of the bills about limiting the number of dogs (I truly believe that no person needs up to 50 dogs), I don't think one should legislate how I follow my hobby.

Educating the public is the best thing we can do.
With the day and age of the internet, there is NO reason for someone to say that they did not learn about Fanconi Syndrome prior to purchasing their basenji.

With the number of ads out that talk about Fanconi, there is no reason for folks to be *in the dark* about it.


Just for accuracy's sake....

Kathy, I am pretty sure that Data was not affected. He died of lung cancer at about 10 years old, and I think he was stripping clean at that point. He also has a clear son, Merlin, so that confirmed my memory.

Clearly, though, he was a carrier since Jaadi was affected.

[nomrbddgs]

Thanks to all who have put questions and answers forward. I'm kind of glad I pushed the issue, I have learned much more about the syndrome from the people who actually have the experience. As Jason stated, there are a lot of questions that people have who have never had an afflicted dog. And as Andrea states, some do better on the protocol than others, while some have different organs affected over time. It's all a learning process for us. And, it opens our eyes to some of the more difficult aspects of Fanconi. This is the part of the education that I wanted-some real discussion on living with them. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but I really want to know. I guess I have an enquiring mind and feel a need to understand.