Tilly's Fanconi Test Results

[Elscodobermann]

Well, we got her results through yesterday - unfortunately she is showing as being a Probable Affected. I am just so glad we got her tested, so that we can start the pee testing and be on guard for if/when this disease manifests itself.

Its very disappointing, but thats life i suppose. Doesnt stop us enjoying living with her and enjoying showing her.

Scott

[renaultf1]

Scott...I'm sorry to read this...but, yes it is always better to know, so kudos for you for having the test done. Just curious, but how old is Tilly?

[Craigh]

Scott,
So sorry to hear the results of your test. We're waiting on the AKC papers back on Bella so that we can have her tested as well. How long did it take you to get the results back?

[basi]

I'm so sorry to hear this. Are her parents tested?

[tanza]

Well, we got her results through yesterday - unfortunately she is showing as being a Probable Affected. I am just so glad we got her tested, so that we can start the pee testing and be on guard for if/when this disease manifests itself.

Its very disappointing, but thats life i suppose. Doesnt stop us enjoying living with her and enjoying showing her.

Scott


Very sorry to hear that..... hope that it is a long time before or if she deveolps Fanconi

[agilebasenji]

Didn't one of the Jones dogs have Fanconi that was spilling sugar but never had symptoms due to the diet being fed? Seems like I read that years ago in the Basenji mag or the BCOA. (But please don't get too excited based on my questionable memory.)

[Elscodobermann]

Hi , tilly is 18 months old - as far as i am aware both her parents are untested - both her parents are untested as far as i am aware. I know its not a definitive test but surely any indicitive test is better than nothing?

Anyway, off to bed, early start to drive down to WELKS in the morning.

Scott

[basi]

Good luck for Saturday at WELKS:D

[Quercus]

Didn't one of the Jones dogs have Fanconi that was spilling sugar but never had symptoms due to the diet being fed? Seems like I read that years ago in the Basenji mag or the BCOA. (But please don't get too excited based on my questionable memory.)

They attributed it to the diet...but nobody really knows. This was before the test, but there was some talk that some "carriers" may spill a little sugar, but never have significant metabolic changes.

There have been some lines of Bs that have NEVER had any dogs spill sugar, that are having some dogs test as carriers and affecteds. The pattern of inheritance with these lines is true, so it doesn't seem to be a problem with the test, but more of something that these dogs have some sort of modifier (Lisa can probably word this better) that supresses the expression of the Fanconi.

[Quercus]

I am sorry, Scott. But hopefully you won't ever have to deal with the Fanconi symptoms, or if you do it will be a long time from now.

[Janneke]

Sorry to hear this, but always better to know so you can be prepared.

Good luck at the show :)

[MacPack]

Yes, better to know. You can urine strip test weekly instead of monthly so you get the earliest possible head start on the protocol. And it is "probable" affected after all.good luck that you have her for many years!

[moetmum]

I am so sorry to hear your test has come back prob affected, your girl is not the first prob aff by the sire, so he must be at least a carrier. I wish more would test. At least you are now aware and can watch out for it, there is a good support system on this forum with experience of this condition, I hope you don't need to use it for many many years.

[Tiva]

Sorry to hear about this. :(

your girl is not the first prob aff by the sire, so he must be at least a carrier
He is not tested, but he is a carrier. He had 3 litters in UK (with 2 females), all before test was available. Unfortunately, one Dam was latter tested AFS (one of pups too, but some pups are carriers, so Sire can't be AFS) and Tilly's Mum is obviously at least a carrier.

[basi]

Sorry to hear about this. :(


He is not tested, but he is a carrier. He had 3 litters in UK (with 2 females), all before test was available. Unfortunately, one Dam was latter tested AFS (one of pups too, but some pups are carriers, so Sire can't be AFS) and Tilly's Mum is obviously at least a carrier.

All the more reason that the owner/breeder of the dam should have tested her before using him:rolleyes:

[Tiva]

Yes, I agree. And if dam is clear, her owner can use Ruben for breeding.;)

[BasenjiDiva]

I am so sorry. She is so young and who knows what treatment advances are coming up in the near future!

Pat

[wizard]

So sorry to hear this - but a heads up is better than a surprise later on.

[dmcarty]

I believe that many have had great success with the Gonto's Diet - the Jones girls were feeding raw I believe. I see not reason why you could not do the Gonto's diet - obviously with out the blood gases etc. But the Red meat long grain protein and pet tab plus and 1 x month amino fuel along with a tbls of meat type canned food. Can't hurt and might help.

[MarleyJo]

I am so sorry. Hopefully all will go well. Many of us have been through this and it seems every case is different. We were lucky with our girl Marley. Just a couple of pills twice a day and you would never know. She had a long happy life. Fingers crossed and best wishes.

[Elscodobermann]

Thanks everyone. All of your comments have made us feel more positive about Tilly's future - also at WELKS today we were overwhelmed by all the people who came over to speak to us about it - i suppose as they say bad news travels fast - but everyone was very positive about it i.e its not the end of the world, and pleased that she had been tested - i am just astounded that testing your dog over here is not a matter of course.....

Tilly only got 2nd in postgrad today - she should have won! Anyway, really enjoyed the show, and have spoken to a lot of people with years more experience than us in Basenjis who have given us so much encouragement and advice.

As for Tilly - we got home at 9pm, my mum had left a lovely roaring log fire on for us - Tilly promptly chased all the dobes away from the fire and settled down in the prime spot nearest the heat - she knows shes special! Meanwhile me n john have just poured a little of the "amber nectar" to celebrate a very enjoyable weekend - basenji people aint all that bad.

[basi]

Thanks everyone. All of your comments have made us feel more positive about Tilly's future - also at WELKS today we were overwhelmed by all the people who came over to speak to us about it - i suppose as they say bad news travels fast - but everyone was very positive about it i.e its not the end of the world, and pleased that she had been tested - i am just astounded that testing your dog over here is not a matter of course.....

Tilly only got 2nd in postgrad today - she should have won! Anyway, really enjoyed the show, and have spoken to a lot of people with years more experience than us in Basenjis who have given us so much encouragement and advice.

As for Tilly - we got home at 9pm, my mum had left a lovely roaring log fire on for us - Tilly promptly chased all the dobes away from the fire and settled down in the prime spot nearest the heat - she knows shes special! Meanwhile me n john have just poured a little of the "amber nectar" to celebrate a very enjoyable weekend - basenji people aint all that bad.

Glad you enjoyed your day:D How nice to come home to a ready made fire:D

I wish also that more people would test but hey ho! I'm not familiar with the bitch that won your class:confused: was she a brindle? I see Tilly's full sister had a good day winning BOB.

[Elscodobermann]

hi Basi - the bitch who won the class was a red - but she was withdrawn from the challenge for some reason.

[basi]

hi Basi - the bitch who won the class was a red - but she was withdrawn from the challenge for some reason.

Hmm wonder what happened there then:confused:

[Patty]

Just read about your results and would join the others in saying how sorry I am.

Personally I do not agree with carriers being used as they will only produce more carriers!
The argument is used that good breed points will be lost but they are often lost any way - no guarantee that they will be passed on! 'Ss' law says they won't!

Tilly is a lovely bitch - yes you were right about the results at WELKS she should have been 1st in her class. I will be very interested to read the judge's critique. The bitch was withdrawn because she had been frightened.

Best wishes for future successes.

[Quercus]

Just read about your results and would join the others in saying how sorry I am.

Personally I do not agree with carriers being used as they will only produce more carriers!
The argument is used that good breed points will be lost but they are often lost any way - no guarantee that they will be passed on! 'Ss' law says they won't!

Tilly is a lovely bitch - yes you were right about the results at WELKS she should have been 1st in her class. I will be very interested to read the judge's critique. The bitch was withdrawn because she had been frightened.

Best wishes for future successes.

A carrier bred to a clear will produce carriers AND clears...you could keep a clear and be done with carriers (by having them spayed or neutered) in one generation.

I can respect that you wouldn't want to use a carrier...but there is nothing wrong with breeders who do.

[lvoss]

Everytime we choose not to use a dog diversity is lost in our genepool. We lose so much already due to things like popular sire syndrome it would IMO be catastrophic to the breed to further reduce diversity by eliminating all carriers simply because they are carriers. There are far more issues in the breed than just Fanconi and all bottlenecking for one reason or another will only help to express other issues in the breed like a rise in PRA, HD, Hypothyroidism, or some other condition that may currently be quite rare. It is better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations.

[dcmclcm4]

Even though I am not a breeder, I totally agree with using carriers and even male affecteds bred to a clear. I rescue Bs and have had only a few affecteds but I have quite a few with different eye diseases, probably all of them genetic. I worry about the other diseases that will occur more frequently when one limits the breeding diversity!

As long as the breeder keeps track of the carriers and do not allow them to breed to another carrier and/or affected then I see no problem. I do know accidents and things happen though.

Owning and taking care of an affected is not the worst thing that could happen. I own one and she is doing great at 10 1/2.

[tanza]

And if you go to my website you all will see that I am planning a co-breeding this fall that will be Affected (via frozen since the male is deceased) to Clear... we thought long and hard about this... however, we are responsible and knowing that all will be carriers it is the breeders responsibility to make sure they know where all those pups are and what people are doing with them... same goes for any Carrier to Clear... some will be clear, some will be carriers.. it then becomes the breeders responsibility to make sure they know everything there is to know about the homes, the people, what is happening to those pups.... We are IMO, shooting ourselves in the foot to throw out Carriers and Affected males (especially ones that have been collected)... my personal opinion is I would never use an affected bitch, but to throw out these others is really to limit our already limited gene pool. We are doing this breeding because there is great temperament and the particular male has produced some very nice dogs, since he was used before 1. the Fanconi test and 2. Before he started spilling.... dogs that IMO we should not want to lose to the breed.... And the fact that Fanconi is a recessive gene, with responsible breeders we can eliminate over several generations.

And lvoss is so right... Fanconi is NOT the only problem our breed has... we need now as responsible breeder work towards elimination of those too.... Sometimes I just scratch my head seeing some breedings that the dogs are DNA for Fanconi and nothing else, yet you look at the pedigree and see Hip problems, eye problems, thyroid problems...etc.... and then people try and justify breeding those dogs regardless... to on top of that reduce the gene pool is just putting ourselves back to the HA days

[sharronhurlbut]

We are very lucky to have good breeders working to improve the health of our beloved breed.

[Patty]

Dear All

Quercus,I totally agree that it is an individual thing - obviously breeders do have their own good reasons for using carriers, affecteds etc. and I'm certainly not saying they are wrong. - this is my personal opinion about not using carriers.

Tanza, I also agree that there is more to worry about than Fanconi which is not a very well researched syndrome in the UK. I strongly feel that the Basenji's kidney function needs research too but being a minority breed I know this will not come about.

I agree too that the gene pool is limited but interestingly when I asked Steve Gonto why he thought that we do not have a major Fanconi problem here (UK) he replied that it was because our gene pool was smaller!! Fortunately in the UK we do not have a lot of recognised problems but as I look at many of the dog's constructon I foresee some arising in the future.

Another problem we have here is that few suitable homes are available so that selling carriers of any disease could be difficult. I have kept all but one of my last litter because although there was, and is a good deal of interest I only found one person who was a suitable owner.

[renaultf1]

Another problem we have here is that few suitable homes are available so that selling carriers of any disease could be difficult. I have kept all but one of my last litter because although there was, and is a good deal of interest I only found one person who was a suitable owner.

Just curious...are you talking about a suitable owner for a basenji in general or a suitable owner for a carrier.

[Benkura]

and I am very grateful to you for letting me have my wonderful little girl!!!

[tanza]

Dear All

Quercus,I totally agree that it is an individual thing - obviously breeders do have their own good reasons for using carriers, affecteds etc. and I'm certainly not saying they are wrong. - this is my personal opinion about not using carriers.

Tanza, I also agree that there is more to worry about than Fanconi which is not a very well researched syndrome in the UK. I strongly feel that the Basenji's kidney function needs research too but being a minority breed I know this will not come about.

I agree too that the gene pool is limited but interestingly when I asked Steve Gonto why he thought that we do not have a major Fanconi problem here (UK) he replied that it was because our gene pool was smaller!! Fortunately in the UK we do not have a lot of recognised problems but as I look at many of the dog's constructon I foresee some arising in the future.

Another problem we have here is that few suitable homes are available so that selling carriers of any disease could be difficult. I have kept all but one of my last litter because although there was, and is a good deal of interest I only found one person who was a suitable owner.

I totally disagree with your statement about not having a major Fanconi problem.... I think that UK has just dodged the bullet for years. Look how many that were tested from Europe have come back as Carriers or Affected?... In my opinion it was just a short matter of time before Fanconi exploded in the UK... And I am not so sure that the gene pool is smaller in the UK, but more that there are less Basenjis in general. And have people really talked about Fanconi affected dogs. You know when I got in the breed, I heard over and over from people in Europe, Fanconi is not a problem, same from Aussie breeders.... until the test came out... and then all these dogs started showing up as Carriers and/or Affecteds.

[Elscodobermann]

It would be interesting to know just how many dogs in the UK (of sufficient quality to be used at stud) have actually been tested as probably clear - I know of a few but so few people have actually tested their dogs how on earth can we make assumptions about how widespread Fanconi is in the UK?

Tilly's mother is of "british" bloodlines, and must be at least a carrier - so Fanconi is out there - its not just stemming from imported stock.

I dont wish to keep harking back to Dobermanns, but when Von Willebrands became a recognised issue back in the late 80's/early 90's, many uk breeders were convinced it all stemmed from a few US imports who sired affected pups - and totally denied that their lines could have anything to do with it. This of course was complete rubbish - british lines had to have the carriers there as well, and this proved to be the case as more people tested. No-one can be blamed for having these things crop up in their lines - thats life, things happen. But when a test becomes available (even if it is not a definitive test) then there is no excuse for not using whatever means available to help identify the status of breeding stock to ensure no Affecteds are produced.

To ignore carriers in a breeding programme would do a great disservice to the breed- especially in the UK where choices are limited to begin with.

[Maya]

Im sorry to hear your Tilly has come back as affected :(

[tanza]

On the OFA site you can sort pretty much any of the fields. So I would guess that UK registration numbers are unique, like AKC registration numbers? So you could sort the list and look that way, provided that people are using the correct registration numbers.

[Patty]

renaultf1 - I mean Basenjis in general!

Tanza - I respect what you say. Re gene pool and major problem in the UK- I was only quoting Dr Gonto in reply to a question asked of him. I recall he said he'd advised on 11 over several years.
As Elscodobermann said, until every breeder tests we don't know of how many affected dogs we have here.
I'm not sure of present testing but some people did test before the latest Gary Johnston linked marker. I can only recall a few having been suspected of having developed Fanconi. Those that now have their dogs tested are open about it but on the whole people here are not. I queried with OFA how long a line could just breed carriers. I have only bred for approx 30 years but I have carried on the lines of a breeder who started in the very early 40s - I do know that Fanconi was not diagnosed in her lines nor in mine. Not to say there couldn't have been carriers but statistically, I would have thought that at some point the syndrome would have occurred, although I could be wrong!
I should also add that I am not totally qualified to comment because I have not had my dogs tested for the linked marker. As I had bred my last litter (and don't intend to breed again),when the test was made available here, it doesn't seem necessary. Of course if any one decides they want to use my dog I would have him tested first and also his parents.
However because I care desperately about the breed and have devoted my life to it, it is all is of great concern to me. When it is your own dog diagnosed probably affected I do know how tragic it must be and I feel so desperately sorry for any one who it happens to.
We do have other major problems of course, mainly constructional I think.
Incidentally it seems to me that a great percentage of breeders in the USA do test - am I correct? Probably in years to come it will be the same here. Unforunately our KC are not keen to recognise the linked marker test.
Elscodobermann - I've just looked through the WELKS catalogue and of 10 Breeders there, 5 definitely do test and 2 definitely don't - the other 3, I'm not sure whether they do but they might. It's perhaps not as bad as one might think. Incidentaly I think Tilly's mother's pedigree does include imported stock but I don't think that's got anything to do with it -after all Fanconi Syndrome arises from a mutant gene - when you go down that road it's non-productive!
Tanza -This subject seems to attract many opinions which does mean that people do care which must be good for the future of our beloveds.

[tanza]

I totally agree that people do care about the breed and that is a good thing, the fact that we can and do discuss openly is what IMO, makes our breed head and shoulders above many others.

In the US, many, many breeders are testing.. however there are most likely just as many Back Yard breeders, Puppy Mills, and even people that call themselves responsible that are not testing.

I am curious, about you not testing yours? Don't you want to know that status, regardless if you are going to breed anymore or not?

I think that many breeders all over the world started testing due to peer pressure... and found out that they indeed had carriers and/or affecteds. Honestly that was one of the things that many of us hoped for, that through peer pressure people would have to test.

[lvoss]

I remember when I was new to the breed and had made a statement on an email list that Fanconi had been diagnosed in basenjis all over the world and having a breeder in a foreign country email me to tell me that there were no cases of Fanconi in her country, I was wrong and should learn to keep my mouth shut. Dr Gonto had people contact him from that country with cases, they were ostracized by other breeders in their country and if they made it public they were called liars. Even where the reaction was not as extreme as in that particular case, I do think that there has been something of a code of silence regarding Fanconi so it is hard to judge the incidence unless testing is being done.

[Patty]

Tanza - You are right about peer pressure - I have actually seen it here in the last few years - gradually people who at first didn't test followed the example of their fellow breeders and I can see that in the not too distant future the majority will test because they will want to use studs of breeders who insist that the bitch must be tested. In a small country like ours peer pressure is particularly effective.
You ask why I haven't tested my dogs - for several reasons really, but my dogs are fit and healthy and because I know my lines and a great deal of the dogs in them I have no cause to think that my basenjis are affected and so am not worried to that extent. If I thought that there was a possibility of them getting the syndrome and so could be forewarned of the necessity to treat them I would test. There is the possibility that we could have always had carriers through the generations and so if really necessary, as I said, I would do so. There are other quite personal reasons which I can't go into here.
We are very lucky here in that Puppy Farmers, as we call them do not trade in Basenjis as they are a non-commercial breed but do have the problems of irresponsible breeders.
When I re-read my answer as to why I don't test I realise that it could seem a strange answer to you, I hope not any how!!
Ivoss - its a little bit like that here but everyone is getting more relaxed about it now, thank goodness. I actually feared there would be a 'witch hunt' as I've seen that before in our breed about many other things!! There was quite a bit of anger about our Breed Council inviting Dr Gonto over to speak and many just refused to go to listen. Those of us who did go learned a great deal and I have tried to impress on the then 'antis' just how useful and informative his talk was.
Benkura - thank you as well, you have given her a lovely home.

[khanis]

Personally I do not agree with carriers being used as they will only produce more carriers!
The argument is used that good breed points will be lost but they are often lost any way - no guarantee that they will be passed on! 'Ss' law says they won't!

Using ONLY clears is a sure way to limit the already small gene pool and have other *issues* start to show up in vast numbers. This is a crazy way to think. Having lived with both Fanconi Affects AND blind dogs, I couldn't imagine purposely whittling the gene pool to near nothing.


A carrier bred to a clear will produce carriers AND clears...
Although I'd love to believe this, it is what we WANT to happen,m but no it does not happen all the time. This should read *breeding a carrier to a clear MAY produce clears.



Tanza, I also agree that there is more to worry about than Fanconi which is not a very well researched syndrome in the UK. I strongly feel that the Basenji's kidney function needs research too but being a minority breed I know this will not come about.
I am not sure how much you know about Fanconi Syndrome, or that it has been around for YEARS and YEARS. Research has been going on since the 1970s, so I think that is a pretty damned long time. I know the KC does things way differently than in the States, but I'd think that all the research done over here should be taken pretty seriously over there.



I agree too that the gene pool is limited but interestingly when I asked Steve Gonto why he thought that we do not have a major Fanconi problem here (UK) he replied that it was because our gene pool was smaller!! Fortunately in the UK we do not have a lot of recognised problems but as I look at many of the dog's constructon I foresee some arising in the future.

I can tell you right now there are more than that. I can also tell you that just because he says he's talked to 11 people... does that mean that is all there is? Heck no. I know of multiple people that were VERY put off by his rudeness in emails and will not deal with him in any way because of it. Sure, he knows Fanconi, but tact is not his forte.
Your gene pool may be smaller, but since we know of UK dogs impoted to the US that have produced it and tested as carriers tells us that the gene IS in the UK.

I totally disagree with your statement about not having a major Fanconi problem.... I think that UK has just dodged the bullet for years. Look how many that were tested from Europe have come back as Carriers or Affected?... In my opinion it was just a short matter of time before Fanconi exploded in the UK... And I am not so sure that the gene pool is smaller in the UK, but more that there are less Basenjis in general. And have people really talked about Fanconi affected dogs. You know when I got in the breed, I heard over and over from people in Europe, Fanconi is not a problem, same from Aussie breeders.... until the test came out... and then all these dogs started showing up as Carriers and/or Affecteds.
C'mon Pat, if you don't test, you must NOT have it!! :eek:

Tanza - You are right about peer pressure - I have actually seen it here in the last few years - gradually people who at first didn't test followed the example of their fellow breeders and I can see that in the not too distant future the majority will test because they will want to use studs of breeders who insist that the bitch must be tested. In a small country like ours peer pressure is particularly effective.
You ask why I haven't tested my dogs - for several reasons really, but my dogs are fit and healthy and because I know my lines and a great deal of the dogs in them I have no cause to think that my basenjis are affected and so am not worried to that extent. If I thought that there was a possibility of them getting the syndrome and so could be forewarned of the necessity to treat them I would test. There is the possibility that we could have always had carriers through the generations and so if really necessary, as I said, I would do so. There are other quite personal reasons which I can't go into here.

I have found over the past few years that Europeans are coming to the US for dogs as we are doing Fanconi Testing regularly.. and for ***any*** dog to have been whelped and tested Affected SINCE the test came about is utterly irresponsible by the breeders, regardless of who they are... unfortunately, it is still happening.

I still believe that until these breeders LIVE with a Fanconi Affected dog, they will not know how serious the issue can be.

[Quercus]

Although I'd love to believe this, it is what we WANT to happen,m but no it does not happen all the time. This should read *breeding a carrier to a clear MAY produce clears.







.[/B][/COLOR]

Right, of course I should have said "may, or can" produce clears...of course with my luck, the whole litter would be carriers....no, wait....with my luck, the wrong test result would have been given to me, and my clear bitch would actually be a carrier....

[dmcarty]

Having been in the breed for a 'couple' of years - and also understanding scientific process terminology here is my thought(s).

UK and other European countries have maintained for years that they did not have fanconi, hip dysplasia etc etc (insert breed and insert disease). To disabuse everone of that 'myth' Gonto's once published that he had samples from every country that had basenjis - and all countries had it. He did not divulge names of animals, kennels or people as he had promised confidentiality - but he did say it was beyond the US.

When a scientist makes a statement about "gene pool too small to get it" I believe that is someone interpertation that is their understanding of what they think was said. What was likely said is that "your sample size is too small". which means there are not enough dogs collected to make a blanket statement of the prevalance of the disease.

One thing I have learned with working with my Portuguese Breed and breeders overseas is that they focus on something like "fit for purpose" Those who cannot do what the purpose is don't live (either because of natural result or are eliminated) - so how would you know what disease they carry. I have had tons of breeders tell me that the Podengo has no health issues - well guess what - in the small size they get legg calves PErth just like other small breeds - if they can't hunt rabbits in portugal however - they are killed. End of problem.

Now I'm hearing of some dogs with seizures - thyroid? or something else - who knows no one tests.

BUT I also remember one of the reasons our original gene pool got so small and interrelated in the US was by removing too many dogs from the gene pool with aggressive HA and PRA testing. I think it's smart to know - and smart to use that knowledge to improve the breeds health AND diverstiy.

[moetmum]

My litter was carrier to clear (which was before testing was available) I had three carriers and one clear, I was unlucky, I know of a litter bred this year carrier to clear that had three clear and one carrier, one dog and two bitches, we can't afford to completely discount carriers (obviously only to clear), but I do believe that all of the pups should be tested and the prospective owners told of the results, now that the test is so much simpler and quicker it is much easier to do.

[Patty]

Khanis - I respect what you say and you do make a good points. I'm sorry that I mentioned my opinion about carriers because it has obviously caused you upset. Yes I have read a great deal abut Fanconi but certainly am always willing to learn. - I have learnt something more on this forum. I do know though that Fanconi syndrome arises from a mutant gene and so could arise at any time. I'm not a geneticist either so have only general understanding of the transmission of genes but have read quite a bit and researched linked marker tests too.
UK KC does take note of research from all over the world - after all science is science in whatever country. Very little research has been done over here on Fanconi Syndrome and so they obviously rely on that done in other countries.
Yes I do know that Fanconi has been around for a long time; in the past the available test was used by some breeders and owners here but now that the current test is available many more use it - I looked through a recent show catalogue and out of 10 breeders only three definitely don't (yet).

dmcarty - I quoted exactly what Dr Gonto said and didn't paraphrase. I am interested in your comments on Podengos, a breed fairly new to this country. I have been to several Podengo seminars and two of Portugal's top breeders told us that Perthes disease was one of their health worries so I don't think they are hiding issues here. In my experience too Basenji breeders are aware of health problems but there is not enough open discussion on health; maybe because some people just can't discuss without getting heated. Basenjis have never been bred extensively here and in general are not considered a commercial breed. In the early days there was quite a bit of culling too as they were trying to eliminate what they considered was not correct.

[tanza]

Before the linkage test, there was no other test? Other then monthly strip testing? So not sure what other test you might be referring to.

I may be misunderstanding your reference to "mutant" gene and that is can show up any time? It has been determined that it is a recessive gene, so it doesn't just show up. Any time you breed a clear, depending on if you use a Carrier or Affected, you will maybe get Carriers (and all Carriers if you use an Affected)... but never Affecteds, as we understand the test at this time.

[dmcarty]

Actually Pat - remember the old urine tests that Dr Brown and Dr Bovee were doing - that proved by the way to be not quite accurate. Gee I remember collecting urine and putting it on ice and sending it off Fed Ex hoping that the cooler packs lasted until the sample got where it needed to be.

Patty - I sent you a private message on Podengos you can access once it is approved by clicking on your welcome at the upper right of your screen

[tanza]

Thank Diane.... yes I do remember, but never considered that a test.... as I understood (since it was before my time) they were not even close to accurate.

[dmcarty]

Well it was all we had at the time - although there are some sterling examples of anmals who were considered "clear' via that test (whatever clear was) that turned out to be affected.

[tanza]

Well it was all we had at the time - although there are some sterling examples of anmals who were considered "clear' via that test (whatever clear was) that turned out to be affected.

That I remember hearing.... with the linkage tests... the results are pretty much in 99% of the tested dogs, what you would expect to see... at least to date... so we are certainly better off then in years prior

[ComicDom1]

Everytime we choose not to use a dog diversity is lost in our genepool. We lose so much already due to things like popular sire syndrome it would IMO be catastrophic to the breed to further reduce diversity by eliminating all carriers simply because they are carriers. There are far more issues in the breed than just Fanconi and all bottlenecking for one reason or another will only help to express other issues in the breed like a rise in PRA, HD, Hypothyroidism, or some other condition that may currently be quite rare. It is better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations.

I have been sitting back and reading, and while I do agree that its better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations there are a few things bothering me.

Popular Sire Syndrome came about because of what?

It has been asserted that there is a rise in PRA, HD(hip displasia unless I am misunderstanding), and Hypothyroidism. Aren't all of those that have been mentioned genetic? If so, and we understand that these issues are genetic, then why are they on the rise?

I know what I believe the obvious answer to be to the above questions and it does concern me. I also know if we are aware of these other issues and steps have been taken to identify and test for these conditions and they are still on the rise then what hope do we have for any better results in regard to Fanconi?

Jason

[MarleyJo]

Anyway...................Hope Tilly is doing well and is enjoying the extra attention that these special Basenjis deserve. I will be thinking of Tilly often.

[kiroja]

It has been asserted that there is a rise in PRA, HD(hip displasia unless I am misunderstanding), and Hypothyroidism. Aren't all of those that have been mentioned genetic? If so, and we understand that these issues are genetic, then why are they on the rise?

They may be genetic diseases, but they aren't so clear cut as our fanconi test is. The fanconi is caused by one gene, and it's a simple recessive, which means that the dog must get the bad gene from both parents in order to get the disease. And because of this simpleness, the test can clearly tell you what your dog's status is at an early age and how to work around that for breeding purposes.

HD is different, for example. There is no genetic test for displaysia. And it is believed to involve several genes. Makes it much more difficult to work with. You can xray the hips and "grade" them to see if they are displastic or not. But you can't tell exactly how that will affect offspring of the dog. A dog with excellent hips can produce any kind of hips, and there have been cases of dysplastic dogs producing excellent hips!

There is no genetic test for thyroid either, and some breeds have one for PRA, but most (including Basenjis) do not. So we have to do our best to test before we breed and only use those who have the best possible test results. But most of those tests aren't so exact like the fanconi test. And since many of these things don't show up in a young dog, it helps to wait until the dogs are mature to breed in most cases.

Also keep in mind more and more things are showing up because more and more dogs are getting tested these days. Once you test, now you can see it's there. But when you don't test, you basically ignore the possiblity that there might be something there. For example, just because a dog didn't die from thyroid problems, doesn't mean it didn't have them to one extent or another and may or may not have passed it on to offspring generation after generation. Then all of a sudden you start testing and surprise, dogs are HT!

And of course this is all assuming that breeders put health as a top priority in breeding. But as you I am sure are thinking, unfortunately there are many that just care about other things. *sigh*

[ComicDom1]

I understand that Hips can only really be judged by X-ray. I guess the only way and its probably not exact is to know the history of the line and keep records to see if Hip Displasia presents itself in any of the past breedings to know what may or may not happen in a future one. Still from what you are saying, I get there is no sure way to really determine if HD is a possibility or not. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I do find it very hard to accept that there is no real way to test for Thyroid. As much research as has been done on this(at least were humans are concerned) one would think we would have a better handle on this. I do know animals are used in research and I would have hoped by now with all the scientific advances we have had we could have identified a way to test for this.

Its amazing that we have reached a level in stem cell research where we can clone a dog, a farm animal, and possibly more, but we still remain infants in regard to identifying the components that would allow us to have some insight into genetic disorders.

Issues like these make me want to reinforce something I said in the post where I talked about neutering our Basenji. I would encourage everyone to pull a yearly blood panel on their Basenji. At least that way, your Vet has a road map for your dog and also it give you and your Vet a heads up where you might catch an inkling or indication of a problem in its early stages. I know I will include a Thyroid Test for our Basenji just because of what I have read about possible Thyroid issues on this forum.

Although I am not a Breeder and never plan to become one, I do love the breed from my brief exposure to Basenji's and I wish to do all I personally can to help insure I have a healthy dog and provide a good home for the one I currently have and the possible one(or ones) I will have in the future.

Jason

[Patty]

Tanza - everything I've read on Fanconi indicates that it is a mutation of a particular gene and that's how it arises in the first place (this mutated gene I understand, is what Dr Johnston is trying to identify). I stand to be corrected.
Genes can mutate and are then passed on by heredity - so I believe you are quite correct that it is a recessive gene. I believe that mutations are quite rare but obviously they do occur so hence my comment. I have also read that mutations can be caused by stress (at conception, I assume, but don't know). Is it a possibility that some Basenjis having been 'uprooted' from their Congolese surroundings and brought to completely opposite environment produced this mutation? Just a thought!!
The previous trip test has been clarified by others. As dbcarty said it was all there was then although not totally reliable and I suppose why it was not widely used. However mistakes do occur in all forms of medical testing - we had cases here of women whose breast cancer test results were totally wrng and many suffered becaus of that. There is always human error.
Incidentally I hve seen on Sallyt's web site either an Affected or Carrier result from two tested clear parents. I can't remember who and if I could wouldn't be able to say on this forum but I will check again to make sure.
It's great to be able to discuss these things isn't it?

[Elscodobermann]

It's great to be able to discuss these things isn't it?

I totally agree Patty - its great to see so many people with the good of the breed at heart discussing these problems. Everyone may not always agree with the detail of the way things should be done, but honest and open discussion is the way forward. I am sure all have the best interests of the breed at heart. We are lucky that in comparison to other breeds in general Basenjis are a healthy lot - one only had to look at your lovely old 14 yr old boy still strutting his stuff at the Northern club show to see that.

[Quercus]

I have been sitting back and reading, and while I do agree that its better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations there are a few things bothering me.

Popular Sire Syndrome came about because of what?

It has been asserted that there is a rise in PRA, HD(hip displasia unless I am misunderstanding), and Hypothyroidism. Aren't all of those that have been mentioned genetic? If so, and we understand that these issues are genetic, then why are they on the rise?

I know what I believe the obvious answer to be to the above questions and it does concern me. I also know if we are aware of these other issues and steps have been taken to identify and test for these conditions and they are still on the rise then what hope do we have for any better results in regard to Fanconi?

Jason


I think Kelli's post addressed your queries very well. I just wanted to add that I am not convinced that HD and Thyroid disorders are on the rise in Basenjis. More (lots more) people are testing for both of these things than ever before, so more cases are being diagnosed...that doesn't mean that this stuff wasn't out there prior to testing. Most Basenjis with HD don't display ANY problems, the only way most people would know their B had deformed hips is to do an xray.

And there is a lot of disagreement in the veterinary field whether a 'normal' thyroid diagnosis, is really 'normal' for a Basenji. So, it is confusing at best...


That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be testing, and trying to breed away from these two problems, they should. But it isn't as simple as it seems at times.

[dmcarty]

re: Hip Dysplasia - let me offer this thought. In the German Shepherd dog -which has been tested for years - there has been NO decrease in the % of dogs with HD. It started at 60% years and years ago - and is still at 60%. Now that said the total number of dogs are being tested is increasing however - even in breeding programs that test and only breed good or excellent to good or excellent - they still are getting HD.

It is clear that there are additional factors that are not obvious in x-rays that are at play here - which makes some testing rather problematic.

This was an interesting bit of information I got from some long time GSD breeders.

[tanza]

Patty,
You are correct there has been one or two that a Carrier and/or Affected have shown up, however, I believe in all those cases, the dog was retested and the correct result was found and it is in line with what would be expected. A couple resulted from a blood draw done at the 2007 Nationals in California where the sample became mixed up for whatever reason.. and I believe that 90% have now been retested with the cheek swab and results corrected. In one other case there is an affected that showed up from two clear testings, however it has now been proven that the affected pup is not an offspring of what was submitted to AKC as its parents. And in this particular case, the breeder is IMO a Backyard Breeder that was/is interested in making money, not the welfare of the breed... and proven because the pups registrations sent to AKC turned out not to be from the sire and dam submitted (and this person owned all the sires and dams). Hence we have to remember that the sample sent are only as good are the honesty of the people submitting them.
There has been 2 or 3 dogs that have tested Affected and are or were at an advance age not showing any affects of Fanconi, ie: not spilling... however.... testing of the offspring has resulted in expected results of Carriers or Affecteds, again seemingly proves that the test so far is show the expected results. Since this is a linkage test, we would have to expect that someplace along the way we will find results that maybe be questionable.. but on the whole, it is IMO, proving to be valid. And for the ones that are coming back IND, it is proving that these dogs are most likely Carriers, judging by the results of their offspring.

That said, the more dogs that are tested the more it will or will not prove out the results.... as said many times, if you don't test, you don't know... and if you don't know, you can't say you do or do not have Fanconi in any line of Basenji.

[tanza]

To address HD, PRA, and Thyroid issues, let me just point out one very important factor... unlike Fanconi, the results if not normal for hips (Ex, good, fair) do not have to be published. It is the owners preference to have other then normal results for Hips and Elbows published or not. And I know for a fact of at least 5 Basenjis local and 1 not local that were called dyplastic and the owners did not have the results released to be published. So really we can not say that there is or is not an increase unless all the results are published, good, bad, or indifferent. We can only test and hopefully have some testing history of littermates, offspring, parents, grandparents, etc.

Andrea said that many and most times, Basenjis with hip problems are not noticed and not know unless they have been X-rayed... and for the most part I would agree... except in advanced age.. then it is very noticable, IMO...

Same goes for Thyroid and PRA, if the results are not sent into OFA to be published then who can say if it is on the rise or decrease. PRA is thought to be recessive, but until we have a DNA test we don't know... just like we had with Fanconi.... However if enough people that had or have a dog with PRA would submit the results, then we could in some lines see if the recessive theory holds water... Same with Thyroid.. and as Andrea said there is lots of opinions on what is or is not acceptable... and Thyroid problems are still one of the biggest gray areas, IMO. Again, when breeders do not disclose tests results... how does one know the right or wrong answer?

Until we have a totally open health data base, we don't know... and kudos to the BCOA to have made the Fanconi results mandatory open disclosure on the OFA database.

And yes it is great that all of this can be discussed... ideas exchanges along with data about our Basenjis... and Kudos to our breed for being in the fore front of open, honest exchange of infomation compared to other breeds.

[Patty]

Tanza - thanks for the explanation. Where a retest is necessary is it done for free? Also - For the ignorant (me) what is IND?
Interesting that dogs tested Affected could be showing no symptoms - do you know how this is possible?

[tanza]

Tanza - thanks for the explanation. Where a retest is necessary is it done for free? Also - For the ignorant (me) what is IND?
Interesting that dogs tested Affected could be showing no symptoms - do you know how this is possible?

It was done for free in some cases, depends on the situation. IND is Indeterminate, which is classified as between a Clear and Carrier. Explanation on Indeterminate can be found at http://www.basenjihealth.org/linkage-faq.html

As far as the ones that show no symptoms... why not? Before the test who knew if there were dogs out there that would have tested as affected but no symptoms or the degree that they develop symptoms? Same goes for the protocol... why do some Basenjis do really well on the protocol and some not well at all?

[Patty]

It seems to me that not enough research is available on Fanconi, there seem to be so many questions - I did ask some questions on the basenji health site and some they could answer and some not. I've tried to find answers elsewhere but could find nothing. I wasn't aware until you've just told me that not all dogs do well on the protocol either. Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks. I must be dumb because I would have assumed that with no symptoms there could be no disease? Eg isn't it like saying someone has cancer when they have no growths, no symptoms etc.? Can I have your thoughts on that, Tanza?

[sharronhurlbut]

I had a b that couldn't handle the pills.
He died.
Living with fanconis is not a fun thing.
Preventing it should be the key.

[tanza]

It seems to me that not enough research is available on Fanconi, there seem to be so many questions - I did ask some questions on the basenji health site and some they could answer and some not. I've tried to find answers elsewhere but could find nothing. I wasn't aware until you've just told me that not all dogs do well on the protocol either. Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks. I must be dumb because I would have assumed that with no symptoms there could be no disease? Eg isn't it like saying someone has cancer when they have no growths, no symptoms etc.? Can I have your thoughts on that, Tanza?

As far as doing well or not on the protocol, that is not very surprising to me... no different then why do some people beat cancer? Some just do well on the treatment, some do not. And it depends on the degree of the illness. I firmly believe that Fanconi is much like Cancer... and there are different degress of how the illness progresses. And then add in the fact of trying to shove pills down a dog... of course would add to how effective it is. It would IMO, be very stressful for the animal and that IMO would add to how effective the treatment is or is not...

Since catching Fanconi early is a key 99% of the time and it is caught by strip testing for spilling sugar in the urine, it is usually the owners that catch it before a Vet. And still in this day, many Vets don't have a clue what Fanconi is... during normal check ups, provide you take your dog yearly at least and have all tests done like complete blood work up with checking the urine, easy enough to miss it if there is really no remarkable changes noticed by the owners. I doubt that many do a complete work up once a year on their dogs.

And for those few dogs that were not showing any symptoms, it is very possible that they were not spilling sugar or it was not every day... so easy enough to miss unless you were stripping every single day... so maybe the degree of their illness was not as bad as others. Look at the number of people that find cancer or some other illness at an advance stage, but they had never felt sick? Entirely possible.... And I am sure that many would want to have more details on those few dogs that are/were of advance age... to study... if they are or not, I have no idea. In one case the dog was already deceased, but they have blood/DNA with Dr. Johnson and had it tested.

And now with the test.. there is never a reason to again produce a dog with Fanconi... so really it becomes a moot point, IMO

And the more dogs that are tested the more data we have, which to me is so very important...

[sharronhurlbut]

Yes, Pat your so right...never a reason to have a fanconis b again...unless you just DON'T care!!!

[dmcarty]

patty - some of the reasons that this has been so difficult to work with - until the test - is that many who became symptomatic - did so at 5 or 6. Typically it seems the earlier they were drinking a lot and spilling sugar - the worse they did on the Protocal.

How many times at a vet visit do you bring in or do they take a urine sample? If you don't know that you are looking for something (and many vets are not familiar with this disease) you don't know what tests to run.

A general vet check doesnt' find fanconi any better than a MD visit will find a serious but not currently presenting issue.

[tanza]

patty - some of the reasons that this has been so difficult to work with - until the test - is that many who became symptomatic - did so at 5 or 6. Typically it seems the earlier they were drinking a lot and spilling sugar - the worse they did on the Protocal.

How many times at a vet visit do you bring in or do they take a urine sample? If you don't know that you are looking for something (and many vets are not familiar with this disease) you don't know what tests to run.

A general vet check doesnt' find fanconi any better than a MD visit will find a serious but not currently presenting issue.


Exactly....

[lvoss]

Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks.

Because the very earliest symptoms are ones that would not be caught unless a blood gas test was run, it would not normally be caught. Blood gases is not a normal test and many vets don't have the equipment to run them. In fact, when we first got the DNA marker test some people who got back Probably Afflicted results ran blood gases just to see and saw that even though the dogs were not yet spilling the blood gases results showed signs that changes were taking place in kidney's ability to reabsorb nutrients.

[khanis]

And now with the test.. there is never a reason to again produce a dog with Fanconi... so really it becomes a moot point, IMO


Pat, you know that I will agree with this...
but in fact, it isn't the case... the point isn't MOOT.

After all, Tilly is only 18 months old...
which means that the litter was bred AFTER the Fanconi Linkage Test became available.
There were many Zande [UK] dogs tested that summer [2007] and many carriers... telling us that the mutant gene IS there...
if there were/are carriers, there is more than likely the disease.

Tilly's breeder's were playing russian roulette by doing such a breeding,
without health-testing the parents.
Unfortunately, you and Tilly get to pay the price for their gambling.

Best of luck to Tilly.. enjoy your years with her.

[moetmum]

Most vets don't know anything about fanconi to recognise it, back in the 80's my breeder gave me the current information at that time to alert the vet to the possibility, as I understand it if the vet doesn't recognise Fanconi the usual treatment they might try would actually make the situation worse, I am not very knowledgable on the subject, but firmly believe that we should be testing as many dogs as possible.

I know that it can be inherited, and when a dog comes back affected it may not be showing symptoms, it may not show them for many years, a bit like breast cancer where a number of the family may suffer and a person may carry the genes but not all develop it, or some not for years.

A lot of people were talking about Fanconi at WELKS and coming to their own conclusions about dogs that hadn't been tested, we will never know if they don't test. Although its sad that Tilly has come back affected at least they have got people talking about Fanconi again, and some more dogs are now being tested.

I believe that as well as being hereditary it can also be triggered by external influence one of which was antibiotics used after the expiry date, has anyone else heard of this?

[Patty]

Tanza - my dogs are all subject to a routine veterinary check every year including blood, urine, heart, eyes, etc. (Generally, the only time most of them see a vet!) It's a practice carried on from the breeder whose affix I've inherited. Also whenever I get any scientific information particular to Basenjis I pass it on to him. It's true that many vets in the UK don't know about Fanconi Syndrome.
Another question for any to answer, please - do Fanconi carriers, affected etc drink more than 'normal' Basenjis. Is this a way it could be spotted earlier on? I ask because this might be a useful piece of advice topass on to interested parties
Moetmum - fairly recently Fanconi was caused in various dogs (not only Basenjis) by eating contaminated chews (I'm not sure what the contamination was, obviously some kind of poison. Dr Gonto gave us a list of things that cause Fanconi - probably some of the others know?

[lvoss]

Another question for any to answer, please - do Fanconi carriers, affected etc drink more than 'normal' Basenjis. Is this a way it could be spotted earlier on?
Increased drinking is a symptom of Fanconi but is not the earliest symptom. The earliest symptom that is the easiest for an owner to detect is spilling sugar in the urine. Since this symptom can be intermittent in the very early stages of the disease it is best to several days a month.

[sharronhurlbut]

Isn't the damage to the kidneys started, once the dogs show sign of increasing water drinking?

[lvoss]

Yes, and usually fairly significant by that time.

[moetmum]

Patty it is good to have all of the dogs tested annually but they could still develop Fanconi in the interim, if it developed a month or two later than your annual check and wasn't being monitored the damage would already be done by the next annual check, if you test at least you have a good indication, what have you got to lose?

There is a problem in the UK, I was shocked at the results that were emerging, I also thought the line my dogs came from was long lived, I sincerely hope that you are right that you don't have a problem, my two had good long healthy lives but there was still a problem in the line, as has previously been stated it has been like Russian Roulette. There are no records of what Basenjis have actually succumbed to, if vets are unaware how many are misdiagnosed? We have no way of knowing for sure. It isn't fair on the dogs or prospective owners to take that risk.

[tanza]

And as already pointed out, when symptoms first start with Fanconi (spilling sugar) you may not see it every day. I remember when Jaadii started spilling... one day positive for spilling sugar in the urine, next 3 days nothing, next day a trace of sugar, then two more clear days... so easy to see in the beginning how it could be missed early on....

[khanis]

I am going to take a guess that WELKS was a big show...
the thing is.. the Fanconi research has been going on for MANY YEARS.
The test has been available going on two years [will be in early July 2009].

Since Fanconi is all over the globe, there isn't a good enough reason for UK breeders to not have begun testing. Sure, I know there is a great deal of expense shipping blood. I get that.

BUT, I have also lived with Fanconi. It is NOT pretty. If one can put the time into breeding a litter, there is absolutely NO reason NOT to fanconi test the parents with enough time to get back the results... PRIOR to the breeding. Why put the pups at risk for such a dreaded disease.

I just do not get why people in any place can bury their head in the sand and try and believe that they are not subject to something like this... when instead they could test to know what is in their bloodlines. Maybe someone can explain to me why that seems to be the chosen route in other countries.

[tanza]

And the more results that are in the database, the more information breeders have when thinking about breeding... regardless if you have pet pup... and never want to breed... it is the results that help the people that are breeding...

As I noted before...there were many that said "not in my line" as far as Fanconi, only to find out with the test that 90% of their dogs were carriers... so when breeding, they "dodged" Fanconi.. but what about that one person that might have bred to one of their dogs with another carrier?... and pop up with an affected?.... It is a credit to the breed for all those that have tested... and IMO... a cop out for those that do not test... the price of the cheek swab and test is reasonable for the future of our breed. (OK off the soapbox....)

[moetmum]

I should have explained that WELKS (West of England Ladies Kennel Society) is our first outdoor championship show of the year.

Most of the breeders in the UK are now testing, some are not convinced, it is a shame because it is decreasing the gene pool. Out of five litters this year only two sires used, in such a small numerical breed it can't be good for the future.

Before the testing one of our breeders used an affected bitch to a carrier? dog (I don't see him on the data bank, so assume he isn't tested, this was one of the other litters sired by Tilly's dad), no-one was at fault there was no way of knowing, all of the offspring at this time to my knowledge appear fit and healthy, without testing the dogs we would have no idea there was a problem. I think that if it happened now there would be a lot of unhappy people pointing fingers.

[khanis]

It is a credit to the breed for all those that have tested... and IMO... a cop out for those that do not test... the price of the cheek swab and test is reasonable for the future of our breed. (OK off the soapbox....)
Go ahead Pat... stand up there and keep it warm for me!



Most of the breeders in the UK are now testing, some are not convinced, it is a shame because it is decreasing the gene pool. Out of five litters this year only two sires used, in such a small numerical breed it can't be good for the future.
Were those two sires tested as clear? An you are right... using only the same dogs in a small local/gene pool, it just gives way to a soon-to-occur bottleneck.




Before the testing one of our breeders used an affected bitch to a carrier? dog (I don't see him on the data bank, so assume he isn't tested, this was one of the other litters sired by Tilly's dad), no-one was at fault there was no way of knowing, all of the offspring at this time to my knowledge appear fit and healthy, without testing the dogs we would have no idea there was a problem. I think that if it happened now there would be a lot of unhappy people pointing fingers.
If this was before testing... how were they to know?
You have to keep in mind in the years preceding the linkage test, many dogs, did not start to spill until well into their veteran years.
I know lots of people like to think they know the health of all the dogs they have produced and I hear it all the time.
But people move, things happen, you lose touch.

I am confused as above you mentioned another litter sired by Tilly's dad was to an affected. Was this at the same time as the litter that produced Tilly, or well-before the linkage test [meaning that the resulting pups are more than 20 months old]?

Don't cover your eyes, it IS happening now! There IS finger-pointing.
And quite frankly, these folks DESERVE to have fingers pointed at them!
Just ignoring it leads them to belive that what they are doing is OKAY and it is not okay in any way.

I, for one, would not feel any guilt at the finger-pointing when there isn't a reason for these people to be breeding so irresponsibly.

[moetmum]

There was no fault in the mating I mentioned as there was no test, Tilly is from a repeat mating from another litter produced at the time. I don't think at the time of Tilly's litter any of the previous pups from either litter had been tested, they were both lovely litters, all looking healthy, (and still looking healthy) I suppose that they thought there was no problem, they hadn't previously seen fanconi in their lines, they were sadly wrong, this is why nobody can say for sure their line is clear if none of them are tested.

Fanconi must start somewhere, are any of the dogs that have been imported from Africa coming back as carriers or affected? Or has this just mutated over the generations?

[Patty]

I don't see that there is any answer to those who breed without testing although of course that is their choice. No doubt when one of their breeding is tested and diagnosed they regret and blame themselves for not testing. But that doesn't help the people who have have been sold one of their pups who is diagnosed. In that case it's wiser to buy offspring from tested parents nowadays. I can't quite remember exactly when linked marker testing was known to be available here but I know litters have been bred since then.
Actually I've found that many people, including breeders do not really care about the breed as such. There are so many I've spoken to who really know very little and imagine that the breed started with them! - in fact a breeder once said to me that he didn't care about the past only from the time he started breeding.
Interesting to know that a symptom just crops up seemingly out of the blue - does any one know if research has been done on this? Eg. is there a common trigger? As I said before its strange to me that more research hasn't been done when Fanconi Syndrome would appear to be so rife.
Incidentally, since finding so much information on this site, I'm going through carrier's ,affected etc. pedigrees to check whether there is a common ancestor. Fairly easy here as I keep detailed pedigrees (and have done so since I learned to write!} also zande pedigree database is exceedingly helpful and saves my updating no end of time (all praise to that site).
Khanis, - WELKS is one of our champ shows but entries have traditionally been marginally lower than most of the others. We have very few entries at shows now - not even as much as 40 at many of our Champ shows. Club Champ shows are marginally better. You can see therefore, how easy it is to unearth information and how difficult it is to hide it!! I can't remember what our latest registration figure was but it was very low. There are a few breeders who breed every year but the Basenji, as I wrote before, is not, thankfully a commercial breed.
When I have bred (stopped now owing to age) it was mainly to keep the line going - I hold the oldest affix in the ring although it is one I have inherited from one of my mentors.
I do think though that testing is increasing here and I'm really quite sure that when the definitive test is established we will find that most breeders will automatically test their litters. What does concern me a bit is that some who test now seem to think that once they have had a clear litter they need not test any longer.
Comments gratefully invited.
Tanza - re pet pups, there is always the chance that accidental matings occur. That raises another question, if you know, - have there been cases of Fanconi being inherited in a mixed litter?

[Patty]

Sorry I posted the last not having realised there is a next page so I have repeated what Moetmum said.
Moetmum - I think we might be now getting into a diffiult realm here because of the only recent advent of the test - I don't feel that we should talk about specific breeders who can be easily identified, without them being on this site and able to answer back. Just a comment and I don't mean to offend.
Re imported African dogs - I believe that all the recently imported dogs were tested free of Fanconi but the rest of the forum from the USA will be able to confirm this. I don't somehow think that it came with the very early dogs but as the mutation can occur through stress it's a perfectly valid theory that uprooting them from their forests and shipping them here could have caused such stress and hence subsequent mutation. Personally because of my experience, I assume that it cropped up later than this but you never know!!!

[tanza]

There was Fanconi in the early Basenjis, it just did not have a name then and no protocol for treatment... In talking to breeders here in the US, it was just known as the kidney problem... And it has been in the US since Basenjis were introduced, as I have been told by older breeders. Of course without a name or records, one would not really know....

The newer Afs that have been introduced, the ones tested have tested clear.

[lvoss]

Lukuru Amisi tested IND.

[tanza]

Lukuru Amisi tested IND.

Thanks, I forgot about that

[lvoss]

Interesting to know that a symptom just crops up seemingly out of the blue - does any one know if research has been done on this? Eg. is there a common trigger?

Though it may seem to us that the symptoms just crop up out of the blue in reality that is not what happens. The changes in the kidney start happening long before there are symptoms that are visible in the outward behavior or condition of the dog. As I stated before, many of the changes occur that effect blood chemistry that only specialized equipment can detect.

[EskiLovr]

Though it may seem to us that the symptoms just crop up out of the blue in reality that is not what happens. The changes in the kidney start happening long before there are symptoms that are visible in the outward behavior or condition of the dog. As I stated before, many of the changes occur that effect blood chemistry that only specialized equipment can detect.

That is one of the fundamental challenges in veterinary medicine. Since animals cannot talk, they can't tell us when something is 'off' and frequently things are not noticed until the situation is pretty far along, because until the behavior or outward appearance is affected, we cannot know anything is even wrong.

My hat always goes off to the veterinarians who diagnose conditions based on such tiny amounts of information and subtle clues. Of course credit also often goes to observant owners who pay close attention to the patterns of their own animals, and note any deviance from those patterns.

[khanis]

I don't see that there is any answer to those who breed without testing although of course that is their choice. No doubt when one of their breeding is tested and diagnosed they regret and blame themselves for not testing. But that doesn't help the people who have have been sold one of their pups who is diagnosed. In that case it's wiser to buy offspring from tested parents nowadays. I can't quite remember exactly when linked marker testing was known to be available here but I know litters have been bred since then.
The test [as a number of us have indicated] has been available TO EVERYONE IN THE WORLD since July 2007. This test has never been limited to the USA. Sally Wallis, Zande, submitted quite a few samples that summer [in the first few months of the test availability]. So did Tamsala, Baagna, Zordia, Old Legend's, Faraoland, Tambuzi, Mzalia and more.



Actually I've found that many people, including breeders do not really care about the breed as such. There are so many I've spoken to who really know very little and imagine that the breed started with them! - in fact a breeder once said to me that he didn't care about the past only from the time he started breeding.
I've never heard of a breeder that intimated something such as this, but now with the test available to us, the past incidences of Fanconi is not relevant. Just the results of the sire/dam of each litter.



Interesting to know that a symptom just crops up seemingly out of the blue - does any one know if research has been done on this? Eg. is there a common trigger? As I said before its strange to me that more research hasn't been done when Fanconi Syndrome would appear to be so rife.
Incidentally, since finding so much information on this site, I'm going through carrier's ,affected etc. pedigrees to check whether there is a common ancestor. Fairly easy here as I keep detailed pedigrees (and have done so since I learned to write!} also zande pedigree database is exceedingly helpful and saves my updating no end of time (all praise to that site).
I really don't under stand why you feel there should be MORE research on Fanconi Syndrome. I truly would be interested int he $$$ amount that has been used up through the test development. But, that is aside from the years of Dr. Bovee and his years in PA studying fanconi syndrome.
We arne't talking the past 10 years. We are talking a good 30 years... is that not considered a lengthy amount of research?

I do not buy the environmental bit at all. If that were the case, why would folks such as Cecelia Wozniak, Carol Webb, and Julie/Kathy Jones have been plagued with fanconi? We are talking completely different areas of the country... and a variety of bloodlines. And clean set-ups. I have heard too much that it is how they were raised... sorry, I can thinkm of some skanky set-ups and those folks would never be considered ones to have kept their dogs in an ill manner.




When I have bred (stopped now owing to age) it was mainly to keep the line going - I hold the oldest affix in the ring although it is one I have inherited from one of my mentors.
And what is the kennel name? How long have YOU been using it? We don't really inherit kennel names here. Everyone has their own. Folks like Kari/Sally, me/my Mom [Connie] share the same kennel names, as we are family.




I do think though that testing is increasing here and I'm really quite sure that when the definitive test is established we will find that most breeders will automatically test their litters. What does concern me a bit is that some who test now seem to think that once they have had a clear litter they need not test any longer.
Testing won't increase if folks continue to deny it's existence or how imperative it is to the longevity of the breed. The results thus far on OFA is more than enough to show that it is everywhere... regardless of what folks want to believe.

The linkage test is pretty darned accurate. You can't count the ones that we know can't be the samples of the correct dogs [ie., Medjai's sire CANNOT be a fanconi clear since he is Affected and he has been re-tested, Thanks Michael for proving the accuracy of the test].
I would bet that the owner of Medjai's sire will have no part in getting that dog tested... as for now he can say all his dogs are FAnconi clear... yet we know that is NOT true... Medjai's results tell us that!

Those of us testing diligently are testing [when the need will be prior to breeding] even from clear to clear parents.

[tanza]

I just I am not understanding why you would think that symptoms just "appear"? Spilling sugar in the urine is the first outward sign of Fanconi... however as already stated, things obviously on the inside have begun to change...

And I too would much rather put money and study into finding the next DNA marker, like for PRA.. then to waste time wondering about Fanconi... since we have a test now, what good would learning more about it be? Especially when it can be wiped out (provided people are responsible and test before breeding) in a couple of years...

[lukris]

As a complete novice to the breed, i can only go on my instincts here. There is a test available for Fanconi, eyes, hips, so why doesn't everyone feel it's in the best interest of the breed and owners of course, to have all the available testing done. Both parents of Milo have been tested, we wouldn't have chanced it otherwise knowing it could be done. Makes sense and we at least have an idea of what could happen with Milo. Before the testing was available, i can't and wouldn't comment on. But now there's no excuse surely.

Theresa

[Patty]

Khanis - I suppose yes, more research would be very expensive. I know that the 2 UK kennels you mention were among the earlier testers but couldn't remember just when. Thank you. I was under the impression, mistakenly obviously that the test wasn't available here straight away. It seems to me from your comments that we probably don't have proportionately as many breeders denying Fanconi as you do - could be wrong. Probably because it is a small number and so peer pressure is very strong. It seems to have been accepted fairly easily. I suppose you will always get different opinions.
I don't know the dog you speak of.
Nothing to do with Fanconi but you asked. - usually when an old affix holder dies one of our clubs pay to have it protected. In my case the original holder was one of my two mentors (looked on me and mine as her family) and for many years asked me to take on her affix after her death (I was breeding her lines) and I complied. Dogs that I bred previous to that were registered without an affix so that I could take on hers. She registered it in 1942 and showed continuously until her last illness. Although no longer breeding I still show the dogs that I have (the youngest are now 5) - Ama, one of my 14year olds (15 in July}was at a show in April and strode round the ring like a dog much younger than his years - I was very proud of him, as you can imagine!

[JazzysMom]

I just I am not understanding why you would think that symptoms just "appear"? Spilling sugar in the urine is the first outward sign of Fanconi... however as already stated, things obviously on the inside have begun to change...


Visible symptoms for EVERY disease/disorder just "appear" at some point.
Seems a bit of a no-brainer to me. :rolleyes:

[Patty]

Tanza - re symptoms, I thought that this was so because of what was said earlier about them appearing at any moment in time. Perhaps I misunderstood.
I think I should give up this discussion as I seem to be saying too much. I must let others have a turn. Its a pity we can't all get together and have a face to face chat but this is obviously the next best thing.

[lvoss]

It seems to me from your comments that we probably don't have proportionately as many breeders denying Fanconi as you do - could be wrong. Probably because it is a small number and so peer pressure is very strong. It seems to have been accepted fairly easily. I suppose you will always get different opinions.


I interpret the lower testing rate in the UK to be just the opposite of what you are saying. I would think that you have a larger portion of breeders denying the possibility of Fanconi in their lines than in the US. I think in the US people are testing because they are seeing that the gene is widespread and has hit many kennels even those who have not seen cases of Fanconi. Many were sitting on ticking time bombs so to speak where slowly more and more of their breeding stock were carriers.

Truly if you don't test then you don't know and breeders who breed litters out of untested stock and sell the pups are setting up those new owners for potential heartbreak. No matter how much one thinks their line is clear there is no excuse for not testing.

[lvoss]

It was also brought up in another post about accidental litters. For me, I will not have two intact carriers of opposite sex in my house. It just isn't worth the risk. Since we can collect and freeze semen, that gives breeders the option of keeping carrier males for future use without keeping them intact and running the risk of an accidental breeding. I know other people who work together in breeding programs where one person will keep the males and another will keep the females so there are options.

[khanis]

Khanis - I suppose yes, more research would be very expensive. I know that the 2 UK kennels you mention were among the earlier testers but couldn't remember just when. Thank you. I was under the impression, mistakenly obviously that the test wasn't available here straight away. It seems to me from your comments that we probably don't have proportionately as many breeders denying Fanconi as you do - could be wrong. Probably because it is a small number and so peer pressure is very strong. It seems to have been accepted fairly easily. I suppose you will always get different opinions.

Seriously... do you realize how much 30+ years of fanconi research has brought us??? When I was a little girl, basenjis had *kidney problems* and died of it. Then not too much later, it bacame known to us as Fanconi Syndrome.

I would equated the willingness to test in the US to be the willingness to learn more about our own bloodlines and the future of our breeding program and the breed in general.

I find it odd tha tyou have had basenjis so long and did not know of the test when it came about. It was very wide spread with knowledge of it throughout the world, not just the US.




Nothing to do with Fanconi but you asked. - usually when an old affix holder dies one of our clubs pay to have it protected. In my case the original holder was one of my two mentors (looked on me and mine as her family) and for many years asked me to take on her affix after her death (I was breeding her lines) and I complied. Dogs that I bred previous to that were registered without an affix so that I could take on hers. She registered it in 1942 and showed continuously until her last illness. Although no longer breeding I still show the dogs that I have (the youngest are now 5) - Ama, one of my 14year olds (15 in July}was at a show in April and strode round the ring like a dog much younger than his years - I was very proud of him, as you can imagine!
Hmmm.. I guess I look at it more that I have spent years in the breed and my kennel name shows going back through pedigrees.
When someone takes over a kennel name, that does not show their *time* in the breed... our kennel name will go down with my children and further if they choose... but so far my Mom started in basenjis in the 60s and we are both active breeders with the same kennel name, Khani's.
I did ask... what was the kennel name you use?
I get the feeling you do not want to tell us.
I am not the only one wondering [but one of the few that would mention it], as we are curious of your dog's ancestry.



I interpret the lower testing rate in the UK to be just the opposite of what you are saying. I would think that you have a larger portion of breeders denying the possibility of Fanconi in their lines than in the US. I think in the US people are testing because they are seeing that the gene is widespread and has hit many kennels even those who have not seen cases of Fanconi. Many were sitting on ticking time bombs so to speak where slowly more and more of their breeding stock were carriers.

I agree 100% Lisa!



Truly if you don't test then you don't know and breeders who breed litters out of untested stock and sell the pups are setting up those new owners for potential heartbreak. No matter how much one thinks their line is clear there is no excuse for not testing.
Testing is the ONLY way to know what you have, in regard to any health issue that has the possibility of cropping up.
The choice to NOT test just leads others to believe that one is trying ot hide something. Regardless if that is the case or not, that is the outward appearance.

[lvoss]

Testing is the ONLY way to know what you have, in regard to any health issue that has the possibility of cropping up.
The choice to NOT test just leads others to believe that one is trying ot hide something. Regardless if that is the case or not, that is the outward appearance.

Kathy, you are absolutely correct. When dogs are missing health information on their OFA pages it always leaves one wondering, "Why?" It is even OFA's own recommendation that when an animal is missing data to assume the worst in how you consider its status for breeding decisions. Having the Fanconi results in an Open database has, IMO, been eye opening and is very revealing about breeders.

[khanis]

Lisa,

How about the breeders that have tested so little over the years they have been *in* basenjis... but jumped on the fanconi testing bandwagon?

When folks come to my house to see pups/dogs, I suggest seeing other breeders, asking about their dogs, and ask about health-testing... not JUST fanconi testing. And not to take the *they only test because they have problems with it*

Just think to yourself and wonder why do THEY *****not***** test??
Usually it is becuase they just do not want to spend the money on it, as that means a cut in profits.
The only other reasoning could be becuase they don't want something to be *found.*

It can be noticed that we are testing for more stuff now than we were 10+ years ago... we've just been adding more and more to the plate.... just to know what is there. Hopefully we don't find something... but we would never know if we did NOT test!

[Maya]

Can i just say, it has been SO interesting reading all of this, and very educational :)

I personally can see no reason not to test for fanconi before breeding. Theres is a relatively cheap and non-invasive test available so i cant understand why breeders would not be making the most of it.

We have the same problem in my other breed, pugs. The breed is plagued with hemivertebra (a spinal deformity that can leave the dogs paralysed), my very first pug Delilah has it and it is a constant worry, at the back of your mind the whole time as I never know when i might find her unable to walk. There is no test for it as such (so in reality, basenji breeders are much more fortunate!) but you can x ray for the problem and then you should take any affected dogs out of the breeding programmes. But it is not happening and i see puppies in the ring now and you can tell that they have it from the way they move and hold themselves. Breeders STILL deny that hemivertebra is not a problem in the breed (we have even been accused of lying about my pug having it!!!!!!) and a worryingly large number still refuse to x ray for it... And its not the breeders that will get the heartache, its the owners.

I personally believe, as a breeder of other breeds, that it is the breeders responsibility to do everything possible to ensure that they are producing healthy puppies and if there are tests available they should be using them :)

[lvoss]

How about the breeders that have tested so little over the years they have been *in* basenjis... but jumped on the fanconi testing bandwagon?


I know. Don't forget the ones that seem to think that as long as the dog is Fanconi Clear we should just forget about the pedigree that is loaded for PRA, HD, etc. There are also those out there that test but don't seem to use the information to make better breeding choices.

Jess, you are right, by having an open database and discussing what is out there we are doing better than some other breeds. It is good to see that overall the trend is toward more testing in basenjis and many breeders are trying to be proactive instead of reactive. We still have a ways to go yet but it does look like we are moving in the right direction overall.

[lukris]

Well i've found the discussion really good. Loads of sound advice and information you couldn't get any other way. The forum is ideal for anyone who either has Basenjis or is thinking of getting one.

Theresa

[Patty]

Ive just replied to Ivoss and Khanis posts and it has disappeared - don't know just what I've done!
Here goes again.
Ivoss - my meaning was the opposite. I have just checked out the proportion of breeders here that are testing from the most recent Ch show (today) practically 70% are testing -I don't think I said that fewer are testing previously but was making the point that a smaller proportion do not test here and I am under the impression that it is a better proportion than the US (no criticism). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Two good ideas of yours to avoid the possibility of 'accidents'.
Khanis - no I am not hiding my kennel name on the contrary, I'm proud of it!- I think that the UK members of the site know it. Antefaa is my affix. I just didn't think that people would be interested and it wasn't really a topic for a fanconi thread. I have been continually involved and besotted with Basenjis since 1942 when I haunted the leading Basenji Kennel of the time, forever asking questions (I guess I haven't changed much, huh?!!). I was far too young to even think about breeding then and started after I had raised 4 children some years ago. I fostered (or persuaded my parents to foster ) Basenjis the whole of that time. At the request of the then holder of the affix whose lines I used and on whose principles I bred, I didn't take on my own affix. Yes, I could have held it in partnership but that wasn't necessary.
You're surprised that I had forgotten the date when testing began here but that was merely my failing short term memory!! Sorry!
Yes there is progress in that there is now a linked marker test but I would have liked to have seen more! After all we still have Fanconi and still do not have the definitive test. I would have liked to have seen more progress, but I'm certainly not putting that forward as a criticism, I hope you're not taking it as such? It is my opinion only but all praise for what has been done so far.

[lvoss]

If you go by show catalogs, I think you would find in the US the numbers are much higher than 70%. Show breeders are not the ones who are not testing in the US. We have a much larger population of BYB and puppymill breeders who are not involved in the basenji community. That is where we see the large numbers of untested dogs.

[Quercus]

If you go by show catalogs, I think you would find in the US the numbers are much higher than 70%. Show breeders are not the ones who are not testing in the US. We have a much larger population of BYB and puppymill breeders who are not involved in the basenji community. That is where we see the large numbers of untested dogs.

I was thinking the same thing, Lisa. I can't think of anyone I know that isn't using the test. I would say 100% of the showing population....and pretty close to 100% of the BCOA membership.....

[Patty]

Ivoss and Quercus
That is very good news. From the comments made on the site I had'nt understood that. We are definitely behind the USA then. As I mentioned previously, we hardly ever get puppy mill breeders of Basenjis in this country, thankfully, as they are not really a commercial breed here and there are many more lucrative breeds. - Practically all the current interest here is in the show ring although of course their puppies also go to non showing homes. It seems that we haven't appreciated the difference between our two countries in that respect. On the occasions when 'unknown' people breed, it soon becomes known within the breed. Because of the smallness of the UIK and the scarcity of Basenjis it is extremely difficult to deliberately hide the fact of Basenji births. I appreciate how lucky we are in that way.
Personally when I used to breed I placed a breeding restriction on all puppies which I could lift if necesaary. In the last few years we did have a case of somebody who bred from an unregistered imported bitch but the lady needed to ask advice and so was helped to place puppies. The person who advised them has kept in touch with this breeder and the owners of the dogs.
I have said it before but I am really pleased that I have been introduced to this site - I can appreciate now how the worries about Fanconi Syndrome are such a major topic in the USA.

[tanza]

Fanconi should be a major topic all over the world, as Basenjis all over the world have been tested to be affected or tested to be carriers or are already affected (from those who have tested)... along with all other health testing

[khanis]

Yes there is progress in that there is now a linked marker test but I would have liked to have seen more! After all we still have Fanconi and still do not have the definitive test. I would have liked to have seen more progress, but I'm certainly not putting that forward as a criticism, I hope you're not taking it as such? It is my opinion only but all praise for what has been done so far.


Sorry, but I think that there has beena world of research and I truly never believed that there wouldf be a fanconi test in MY lifetime...
so I am overjoyed that there is one now!

This is BEYOND what I would consider progress... this is a freakin miracle!

[Patty]

Tanza -what I was meaning by 'understanding why Fanconi is such a major topic' was that I have been told that there are backyard breeders and puppy mills in USA that don't test and because of those circumstances I can appreciate what a problem it can be. Here where there are fewer breeders and most of them actually show so it will eventually (and very quickly I should think) become the norm for all breeders who want puppy sales to conform with the rest and test for Fanconi. Hopefully we will soon have 100% testing. I'm pretty sure that Tilly's breeder would be testing in future (too late for Tilly's owner, I agree). I'm sure that people wanting puppies here now,will be looking for tested parents. Obviously, I can only speak for Uk.
Khanis, I've agreed that the progress is very good but I would still like to see research into the kidney function and would love to see a cure for Fanconi. That's me. Total progress for me would be elimination.

[Quercus]

Tanza -what I was meaning by 'understanding why Fanconi is such a major topic' was that I have been told that there are backyard breeders and puppy mills in USA that don't test and because of those circumstances I can appreciate what a problem it can be. Here where there are fewer breeders and most of them actually show so it will eventually (and very quickly I should think) become the norm for all breeders who want puppy sales to conform with the rest and test for Fanconi. Hopefully we will soon have 100% testing. I'm pretty sure that Tilly's breeder would be testing in future (too late for Tilly's owner, I agree). I'm sure that people wanting puppies here now,will be looking for tested parents. Obviously, I can only speak for Uk.
Khanis, I've agreed that the progress is very good but I would still like to see research into the kidney function and would love to see a cure for Fanconi. That's me. Total progress for me would be elimination.

I don't think you can cure genetic disease???? Can you? I can't think of any that can be cured....

[lvoss]

At this time, genetic diseases can not be cured. There is research being done in gene therapy with the hope that eventually it would be possible to change the DNA of an affected person so they have the healthy gene. That sort of technology is still a ways off. The DNA test for Fanconi is for the breed as a whole a "cure" it allows breeders to make sure their puppies are not affected and over time the gene will disappear from the breed.

[Patty]

Quercus, Ivoss - yes, thank you, - gene therapy would obviously be the ultimate answer but I would think would initially be very expensive. Elimination of Fanconi Syndrome by selection is of course the ideal.
Ivoss - have you any idea just how far 'down the road' gene therapy has progressed? I'm not really up to date on this info.

[khanis]

Tanza -what I was meaning by 'understanding why Fanconi is such a major topic' was that I have been told that there are backyard breeders and puppy mills in USA that don't test and because of those circumstances I can appreciate what a problem it can be..
BYB and PM do not test because they are IN IT for profit... testing of any kind cuts the profits.




Khanis, I've agreed that the progress is very good but I would still like to see research into the kidney function and would love to see a cure for Fanconi. That's me. Total progress for me would be elimination.
Total progress in elimination would be everyone testing.... we have the test, so using it would be the only way to eliminate it.
I am sure if you googled kidney research I am sure you could find tons of it... I never have as I am more than happy with the progress we have achieved in health-testing.

[lvoss]

Ivoss - have you any idea just how far 'down the road' gene therapy has progressed? I'm not really up to date on this info.

Quite a bit, progress is slow and results have not shown it to be very effective and side effects can be catastrophic. For animal breeding, selctive breeding applying DNA testing results is a far better method.

[tanza]

Quite a bit, progress is slow and results have not shown it to be very effective and side effects can be catastrophic. For animal breeding, selctive breeding applying DNA testing results is a far better method.

I totally agree.... and I for one would rather have money put into other genetic problems...... we have a long way to go.