Good Breeders vs Bad Breeders

[sharronhurlbut]

I do rescue, so I know what MY defination is of a bad breeder, but I was wondering what a breeders defination is of a bad breeder.
Is there a standard that is accepted of what a breeder needs to do to be considered a good one?
Not slamming good breeders in anyway.
I belong to a great breed club, EBC in Wa state, and with one expection, they are steller.
Just asking if there is a general standard cross the US.
Thanks for any help with this you can give.
Sharron Hurlbut from Wa state:

[Luxor]

My definitions of a bad breeder are;

NO health testing
NO spay/neuter contract
NO interest in the puppy after it goes to it's new home
Will place a puppy/dog with anyone handing them $$
Will not take back or help re-home a puppy if needed
Breeds just to make some money

Those are just a few that come to mind.

Denice Kingman
Luxor Basenjis
Quail Valley, CA

[annandael]

I'd have to agree with Luxor.

I also think that tons of dogs living in crates without human contact is a bad thing.

I'm a military spouse, so any more than 3 or 4 dogs is just not logical.

[lvoss]

I agree with Denice's list. I think a good breeder has good communication skills. They are able to communicate to their buyers why they do what they do and why it is important even to someone just looking for a pet. A really good breeder helps the people who contact them to understand why it is important to look for health testing, why spay/nueter contracts are important, makes the person feel they are approachable so when they have a question they can feel comfortable asking it.
I think that communication is so important because even a breeder who does all the right things can turn people off and send them into the arms of BYBs and puppymills if they do not adequately communicate the reasons why they do things the way they do.

Lisa Voss
Kinetic Basenjis
California

[birdbars]

Sherry Stevens of Nowata's Basenjis in AZ would be considered a GOOD breeder by all those standards.

[JazzysMom]

As would Jumoke Basenji's in Woodinville, WA.

Quality breeding program, In depth contract, great follow-up and open communications after pup placement.
If you're looking in the PNW for a breeder, that's the one!

[Quercus]

Hey Sharron,

I would love to hear *your description of what makes a good/bad breeder?

I agree with what everyone has posted so far. I particularly agree with Lisa's comment about being able to connect with puppy people. I think that if your buyers are not comfortable coming to you/conversing with you, no matter how much you want to keep track of your puppies, you will lose track of them.

Andrea Walters
Quercus Basenjis
Toledo, Ohio

[sharronhurlbut]

I am so very lucky up here.
I have the pleasure to work with most all quality breeders.
My ideal breeder puts health, temperment before looks.
A pretty dog is lovely, but if it only lives a short time, its a heartbreak for the families that love it. The work to get the dog the best health possible is a must.
Temperment again, MUST be the main thing.
Unless the dog is going to be in a kennel except for showing, why have a bad temperment on a breeding dog?
I have never been a breeder or a dog show person.
So, my *ideals* might be very different from other folks.
But if those are met, then the placing of the dog into the homes would be my next thing.
Giving a dog to anyone with the money without the dog being de-sexed, is *imo* a byb in the making.
A contract, with co-ownership, and the ability to "go get" the dog if the contract isn't followed would be a must.
Those are my top 3.

[Quercus]

<<So, my *ideals* might be very different from other folks>>

I don't think your ideals sound very different than most breeders I respect. But I think responsible breeders have a responsiblity to try to breed basenjis that look and act like basenjis, as well as being as healthy physically and mentally as possible. If you take the idea of placing health and temperament over breed type (or beauty) to an extreme place, you could say why bother to have a variety of breeds of dogs..just pick the healthiest, friendliest breed and have that be the only option.

I understand what you are saying though, that people have to be able to live with the dogs, and hopefully for a long time, over being pleasing to look at. And I completely agree. Considering that most puppies in any given litter will go to a pet home, breeders really need to be taking that into consideration when planning their breedings.

I think that a responsible breeder really needs to take a part in trying to educate prospective puppy buyers as to why a basenji may not be the best match for them, and not be afraid to say 'no' to a possible puppy sale. We need to try to keep them out of the rescue cycle before they are even born.

I'll get off my soapbox now ;)

Andrea Walters
Quercus Basenjis

Toledo, Ohio

[lvoss]

I agree Andrea, breeding is such a balancing act. I require that anyone that is considering getting a puppy from me, visit with me and my dogs. During that visit we discuss health, temperament, and my breeding goals. We also talk about what their expectations are for their future new addition. They get to see my dogs in their home environment and see the kitchen chairs that Rally teethed on when she was a puppy and we tell them about how we have had to put child safety latches on cabinets and drawers that we don't want them to get into, and the other quirks of living with our basenjis. I think a large part of responsible breeding is education. I encourage people to visit other breeders because not all families of basenjis are the same and I want them to see the differences and be sure that they are getting the dog they can live with. Some of the people who visit never get a basenji, some get one from other breeders, and some say they will wait until I have the right pup for them. I have only had one litter so far but this way is working for me.

Lisa Voss

[sharronhurlbut]

Guess my post was more of a rescue idea than a show idea.
I have have Af basenji.
I must stay, I like the Hound look...which isn't the show look.
Don't get me wrong. Those lovely b's running around the ring are like fashion models.
But if they don't have good temperment and health, then is very short term, the looks.
My af girl was a really *mud duck dog* she was what I would her ring side an *oh, my GOD* dog...cause I heard that a LOT when I had her at a show for eye tests or whatever...
But she was a dream for me. Loving, healthy and well, well loved.
So, guess that is where I see the difference.
Beauty, wonderful to have, temperment and health, its really a must.
I do hope you understand that I am in no way dissing any show breeders/dogs.
I am letting you know how I see it.

[JazzysMom]

Can't it be that each is really equally important?
Shouldn't a good breeder strive for a healthy dog with a good temperament, that has the looks, personality characteristics and behavior tendencies that define the breed?

Who would want a beautiful Basenji that is the very definition of the AKC conformation standard if it bites the hands that feed it?
And, as loveable as they may be, not many people want to pay good money to a breeder for a dog with a great personality if it looks like it's been hit by a truck!

Why not look for dogs with ALL the best qualities and breed them in an effort to produce truly stellar Basenjis that will represent the entire breed well when they are out and about?

I'm not a breeder, and I never will be. But I have come to really admire the breed. As a pet owner, I want lovely dogs with wonderful temperments.
I guess I want it all!:D

I realize it may be different with rescues, but then again, getting a rescued dog is a different situation than buying one from a breeder. Health and Temperment are the main reasons we chose to buy from a breeder. I have kids and needed to be sure I was getting a quality dog. I don't want to lose one too soon to health problems, and I had to be careful of temperment issues.

I'm not even sure that all just made sense. I just started a diet today {Nutrisystem}, and with the lack of large quantities of food, I think I am starving to death. LOL ;)
All I know for sure is, I got a healthy, beautiful bitch with an outstanding personality and I could not be happier!

[sharronhurlbut]

oh, honey, being thin challenged, I hear you on the diet!
I think most breeders do try for it all. Look, temperment, health.
But they are also bringing in the new blood from Africa.
Now, these's are no way, the lovely show dogs we all see ring side.
They will have to prove their health and basenjisness *if there is such a word* and in the mean time, these dogs puppies will need homes.
Maybe not many/all of them, but some will...and some dogs who do prove to be basenji and healthy will be use, and the pups who are not *pretty* will need homes.
Guess what I am saying is that pretty is nice, but there are other b's who are not ever close to pretty who need homes.
Thank God my husband believes something other than LOOKs make me worthy. Laugh!
Hugs.
I so hope you know we are discussing this in a friendly manner.

[JazzysMom]

Friendly, always.

And I am very happy that my husband not base his decision to marry on looks --it was my stunning personality that won him over. :D {I'm sure he would agree....but please, don't ask him. LOL}

I don't mind an "unattractive" dog -- believe me, I've had a few. Had one dog that people actually laughed at upon seeing, and that hurt my feelings cuz she was a beautiful dog to me.

But like I said, if I am seeking a particular breed, and buying from a breeder, I am going to hope for whole package.
That said, had Jazzy grown up to be the ugliest dog Bryan ever produced, she would still have my whole heart! My husband will tell you it is ridiculous how much I love that dog. {although, she is the first dog we've ever owned that he will admit he liked a lot from the get-go. She cracks him up}.
If I had to choose between lovely to look at or wonderful to spend time with, I'd go with personality every time.

I don't think I've ever seen an African in "real" life, only in pictures on the Internet. But it hasn't struck me that they are anything but beautiful.
Are they just not as "polished" looking?

BTW--I did look at the BRAT dogs when we first began our search, and I would have been happy to take one of those -- homely or otherwise--, but didn't/don't know enough about the breed, and the potential for temperment problems, esp with children and not knowing the dog's past, is what sent me looking for a breeder instead.

[sharronhurlbut]

Bryan's dogs are lovely...we are not talking about his line.
My Af girl...was very houndy...long in the body, bad feet *not pretty* large ears, loose tail...just really not pretty at all, but to me, she was a jewel, and I would treasure her today...if she was alive.
It was so funny, I knew how folks ring side would repond to her... they would come by and say *just spontanous* OH, MY GOD!...looking at her.
I would look at them and say in a very stern voice *laugh in my eyes* ARE YOU dissing my dog????
Oh, NO they would say, backing up, hands raised..., I would smile and say, its ok..she is beautiful to me...and I did mean it.
I mean it still.
So, when or if these new Af dogs or their pups are put into the basenji population, I do so hope folks who just want a pet, will take some of these...*oh, my god* pups in.
If they are 1/2 the dog my sweet girl was, you will be very, very blessed indeed.

[JazzysMom]

>>>Bryan's dogs are lovely...we are not talking about his line.

Oh! Absolutely not! I just used MY dog as an example, to say even if.....!

>>My Af girl...was very houndy...long in the body, bad feet *not pretty* >>large ears, loose tail..

So, the AKC standard that I am familiar with is more based on the "new and improved" Basenji, more than the "original models".

I guess, now that you mention it, I did notice in the photos of African Basenjis {from that African project website} that the tails of those dogs had long, loose curls rather than nice tight curls. It's hard to tell much else from the photos that I recall. I'll have to go look again.

[JazzysMom]

{Like I said, I know very little and am just beginning to learn about the breed...... }

[sharronhurlbut]

The more you learn, the more you will NEED To learn.
Its an exciting time for b's I think.
New blood.
If its included, we might be able to have dogs who have it all, looks, tempement and health.
Fingers crossed its so.
re the houndy look...longer in the back, feet *at least my girl* pretty ugly.
Tails loops like you see in the photos.
But oh, the hearts and love they have..
Giggle, I am a great big fan,

[Quercus]

<<Why not look for dogs with ALL the best qualities and breed them in an effort to produce truly stellar Basenjis that will represent the entire breed well when they are out and about? >>

That's the idea :) But, believe it or not, it can be really hard to find it all in once place.

Andrea Walters
Quercus Basenjis

Toledo, Ohio

[Quercus]

<<It was so funny, I knew how folks ring side would repond to her... they would come by and say *just spontanous* OH, MY GOD!...looking at her>>

Well, that is just, plain rude! Regardless of how funny looking I thought someone's dog was, I would never, ever say something. That is just hurtful....imagine people doing that about each other's children...my G-d! wars would be started!

Just because people are breeders, or show goers, doesn't mean they can't appreciate the beauty in each dog. Yes, some dogs are stunning...but most show dogs have weak areas of conformation...for many of us, it really is more about correct angles (the angles found in Africa) than it is about curly tails :)

Andrea Walters
Quercus Basenjis

Toeldo, Ohio

[lvoss]

I got to spend a weekend in March with Beverly Bland and some of her Avongaras. The best word to describe them was diverse. Even though they were all related in some way or fashion there was a real diversity of traits. None of them were "ugly", though some were more close to what we see in the show ring than others. I was really impressed with their agility and eagerness to please Bev. Each dog had conformation traits that I liked and each had faults like any other dog. So I do not think that being African = ugly and I do not think that it should be used as an excuse for ignoring Basenji type in breeding. Health and Temperament are important but breeding for that to the exclusion of type is not responsible breeding, IMO, because it is that type that makes a basenji a basenji.

Lisa

[sharronhurlbut]

I think the wonderful thing is that we care for these dogs, be they show, pet or doing agility.
I didn't take any issue with what those folks said.
I know they were coming from a different angle than me.
Besides, I got to take that sweet girl home and love her...they didn't!
Laugh.

[annandael]

Speaking of Africans, I got to visit Susan Patterson of Calypso Basenjis. I was lucky to meet her Benin girl Avuvi Afonhaan "Honey" She was such a sweetie!


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for more info on Honey, go to this link: http://www.calypsobasenjis.com/african_import.htm#.htm

It's really educational! :)

[JazzysMom]

Oh my gosh! What a face that little girl has! And the shot of her coming over the fence was just too much!
Beautiful!

[susanhayek]

[QUOTE=Quercus]<<So, my *ideals* might be very different from other folks>>

I don't think your ideals sound very different than most breeders I respect. But I think responsible breeders have a responsiblity to try to breed basenjis that look and act like basenjis, as well as being as healthy physically and mentally as possible.

**interesting thread.
But the Basenjis being bred now don't look like the originals and probably don't act exactly like them either. So who's to say what is typey and what isn't. Does the standard change? Allowed colors have. Breeding and showing change the physical profile. Basenjis now look far different than their early ancestors, don't they?

So I would go with Sharron: temperament, health, and then functional form. I've personally never seen an ugly dog, they all have beauty. Our Quiz is short legged and chubby (we always have to watch her diet) and Jones is tall and lanky. Both are way over the suggested weight, both around 30#, one is thin, one is not. :) My other 3 earlier B's were all different, all beautiful.

So.....Good breeders are responsible for their dogs for life and they place all the litters, champion quality or not (there is a RR breeder who kills all the puppies who aren't capable of being finished); they screen the prospective buyers carefully, educating while they do; they are aware of and they keep track of health problems before and after, have good solid contracts spelling out expectations (including spay/neuter) and act on the contract if it isn't followed (as best they can); they don't plan on getting rich from running a breeding program unless they get rich from placing dogs in perfect homes; they maintain good contact with their buyers and hopefully sell most of the puppies to non-breeding homes. They breed their dogs carefully, hopefully 'improving the breed'. It would be nice if they were involved in rescue also, if only to place 'returns' as carefully as 'first timers'.

Am I missing something?

s.

[Quercus]

<<Basenjis now look far different than their early ancestors, don't they? >>

Hi Susan,

IMO, basenjis don't look that different from than their early ancestors, or their relatives in Africa right now. There are some in Africa that look like they could have come right out of a domestic bloodline litter, and their are ones in domestic litters that look like they are straight out of Africa. I agree that historically western breeders have selected for a few traits that aren't found in Africa, mainly curlier tails, smaller ears, and color (of course)...but overall, I think the dogs look remarkably similar.

[susanhayek]

<<Basenjis now look far different than their early ancestors, don't they? >>

Hi Susan,

IMO, basenjis don't look that different from than their early ancestors, or their relatives in Africa right now. There are some in Africa that look like they could have come right out of a domestic bloodline litter, and their are ones in domestic litters that look like they are straight out of Africa. I agree that historically western breeders have selected for a few traits that aren't found in Africa, mainly curlier tails, smaller ears, and color (of course)...but overall, I think the dogs look remarkably similar.

**Some would agree and some wouldn't. Our Sarah looked very similar to some of the early Africans I've seen photos of. She was pretty big, big boned and long backed, but she had a very curly tail. Sarah was a 'coarser' looking dog. She might have survived in the wild, but not for long. IPSID got her.

What's interesting is defining what is "Basenji" in Africa. I know of some people who believe that, e.g. the Benin dogs aren't Basenjis. I've been having this discussion with a friend.
Dogs were interbred with others, some feel that jackals were/are included, so "pure" is questionable. What defines "pure"?
For awhile I'd heard that some of the recent French Basenjis were bred so short backed that they couldn't move properly.:( And like many current show dogs, I wonder how functional our dogs are. I love breeders whose dogs are competent in other areas besides conformation.

We've only owned 5 B's, but each was/is very different. They are truly exquisite. So are my Poodles and my Rhodesian.

Ah....dogs.:)

s.

[khanis]

Not *polished* ???
Sorry, but that is one of the silliest things that I have heard in ages.

I have seen dogs that are uglier than sin.. in the show ring no less!
People that can't breed a decent looking domestic basenji aren't going to be able to breed a decent looking African basenji!

Go check out my website (link is in profile)... go to Available Puppies and then click on Available African Puppies...
scroll to the bottom of the page to link to "Singer"s page...
then see her full Af babies at the bottom....
How is that for a bunch of African beauties???

Kathy

[susanhayek]

[QUOTE=khanis]Not *polished* ???
Sorry, but that is one of the silliest things that I have heard in ages.

**I'm sorry; to what is this referring? :confused:

I have seen dogs that are uglier than sin.. in the show ring no less!
People that can't breed a decent looking domestic basenji aren't going to be able to breed a decent looking African basenji!

**Uglier than sin? Really?
I really prefer health and temperament and function as breeding goals. IMHO.

How is that for a bunch of African beauties???

**Your dogs are quite lovely.
So are my two Jasiri-Sukari B's. But neither would win in a show.
We think they're beautiful, too. And they both have sweet temperaments. Lucky us. :)

s.