Electronic Collar Training

[jys1011]

I'm wondering what some of your thoughts are on electronic collar training. I've been reading a lot of pros and cons on this & just wondering if anyone had any experience with this type of training. If so was it positive or negative??

[JazzysMom]

We tried this once with Gypsy when she was younger -- I don't like the idea, but when she was young she was veeery difficult and dh was insistent -- and it proved completely ineffective with her. She would just give a small "urp"y little yelp and keep doing what she wanted.

I would never use an electronic collar on a dog w/short hair and no body fat though, to serve as a bit of a cushion there.

[Quercus]

I think it depends what you are using it for, and who is doing the training. Punishment/pain is, of course, a very strong motivator. But it can turn a nervous, or fearful animal into a very dangerous animal. I would NEVER EVER use an e-collar for aggression. I might use it for fence/boundary training with SOME dogs...certainly not all dogs. And I might use it for distance correction (think field hunting) ...but again, not for every dog.

Those collars should absolutely not be sold to the general public to do their own training. Successful use of them is so depenant on the skill of the trainer to understand the appropriate time to use them. One wrong bit of timing can make your dog superstitiously fearful of whatever was nearest them when they got the shock...including other dogs, you, kids, bushes...you get the idea.

[Basenji_Boy]

I've used one on my hunting dog in his training....distance control. They get to a point where they know if they have a special collar on they better listen. Once they get that down, correction is minimal.

I've given some thought to training a basenji to hunt upland game, but I think I would avoid a shock collar with a Basenji for all of the reasons above. I just think it would tweek them out.

[jys1011]

Gotta clarify..I was in no way intending for amateur use. I was reading various professional trainers ideas & methods with the e-collar. A place that we were considering boarding actually uses e-collars during their training classes.

According to some of them it's not painful but it's a buzzing feeling to get their attention. One trainer actually does a demonstration where he puts the collar on himself to show it's effect & let's people try it too.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[elena86]

I would NEVER use an electric collar/electric fence on a basenji!!! My brother and his wife owned Senji for the first 5 1/2 years before they gave him to me. They installed an electric fence, and I feel that it really messed him up. He became very neurotic and more nippy than ever. If he would see a squirrel or a rabbit, he would chase it and run right through the "fence." Then he would be afraid to go back to the house and someone would have to go out with the car, put him in the car, and drive him back to the house. It's taken me years to "deprogram" him. Basenjis need to be trained with positive reinforcement only.

[basi]

Noooooooooooo.....
I am with you on this one Elena, we are in the process in the uk of getting these horrible things banned, I could never use one on my dogs no matter what breed they were. Please reconsider about using one!

Jenny

[nala121498]

I'm not the one to ask for info about training since I did a horrible job with Nala. I do know of a dog who was so smart that they would look to see if they had the remote in their hand - and if not, would do all the things he wasn't supposed to - and that wasn't even a Basenji! IMO, I would try the other training methods as described before resorting to that.
After having said that, I will point out that I do have an underground fence for Nala and it is on the next to highest setting because she was so stubborn during the training process.
My husband said if we had it on the highest setting, she'd just be a little puff of smoke if she got zapped (LOL)! You'll be happy to know that she can go out even without a collar, as she is conditioned now.

[Quercus]

<<I do know of a dog who was so smart that they would look to see if they had the remote in their hand - and if not, would do all the things he wasn't supposed to - and that wasn't even a Basenji!>>

That is the problem with punishment. Think about speeding tickets. Most of us speed....and most of us have had a speeding ticket. We usually slow down for a very brief time...then we start looking for cops, and speed when we don't see them. Now, if everytime you passed a cop caught you going the speed limit, they gave you a new car, do you think people might be a little compliant? Maybe....maybe only those that really needed a new car!

[Basenji_Boy]

I do know of a dog who was so smart that they would look to see if they had the remote in their hand - and if not, would do all the things he wasn't supposed to - and that wasn't even a Basenji!

That Shorthair I had figured that out, he even knew if I didn't have the antenna out all the way I couldn't get him.:rolleyes:

[nala121498]

I can only imagine a basenji would find the remote and either hide it or eat it!

[jys1011]

So true!! These dogs are too smart for that stuff!!

Thanks I really value all of your opinions. We've decided to not let our dogs board with the e-collar boarding place in NJ.

AAAHHH well...I guess we have a 4 hour road trip to board our furbies at a nice trusworthy & experienced place in MA.

It's incredible that we can't find a decent place near us that will exercise our dogs, that will NOT throw them in a room w/20 other dogs, that will know how to interact w/our scary child (TOPAZ).

But I would go to all ends to find only the best place for them!!

[Kate]

Well, I know that this subject was controversial when I last posted on the subject, but I wanted to update, just to let you know that the collar training has worked very well for Callie! She hasn't really worn it much at all, for the last two months, and she knows the boundaries of our property, and comes back when called. Maybe not the first time, :) but she comes, even when chasing a rabbit or squirrel! She doesn't go onto the road anymore, but stops at the front of the property, (If you tell her, no) even when a squirrel is on the road! When she obeys, we tell her what a good girl she is! She is very sweet, and loving, and isn't as insistent to have her own way anymore! She is much calmer and relaxed than she used to be! We most always used only the beep sound on the collar, and if we used the shock, it was on 2, which is 230 milliamps, which is about like a big static shock, which doesn't hurt, but startles the dog! We now can go for walks in the field, without the dog running away, even though she runs and runs around us, and she comes when called, maybe not the first time or two, but she comes! I guess it depends on the dog, and the person using the collar, you can't use it as a punishment, only as a training tool, but if you have a very difficult dog, that won't listen no matter how hard you try, I believe the collar was what did the trick for us! Callie is our third dog. The first two dogs, trained beautifully without a collar, but Callie was very headstrong! She still is, but she is much more obedient now! :)

[Quercus]

<<you can't use it as a punishment, only as a training tool>>

Actually, the only way to use it IS a punishment...and that is okay. The dog should only receive the shock after you have given her a command, and she has failed to obey.

<<I guess it depends on the dog, and the person using the collar>>

Yes, absolutely! You would never want to startle a dog that was already nervous, or fearful. Unfortunately way too many people try to solve aggression problems with shock collars, and only make the problem worse.

Glad it worked for you.

[Kate]

Let me reclarify! You don't get angry, and push the button, just because the dog isn't listening! You use the beep tone first, and if the dog still doesn't want to respond, you use the shock! It only takes a couple of times, for the dog to understand that they need to listen to the beep! After using the beep for a while, they learn to listen to your voice command! You never use it to zap a dog for being bad! Callie only ever got the number 3 twice, because she took off after a bunch of deer! That was all it took! Now, she watches them run, but listens to me, when I tell her no! Without the collar on!
My husband and son and I, all used the collar on 3 on each other! It didn't hurt, only startled you! The rest of the time, we only used the 2 setting, and that wasn't very often. Like I said before, I love my dog, and didn't want her to run off, and get killed! She seems to be much more relaxed now, and knows that she is a part of the family, but that we are in charge! We spent the early morning, with her laying on my chest, with her head under my chin! Such a sweetie! :) If you are someone that can't control your temper, I wouldn't advise you using a training collar! If you can, and are very patient, and loving, it will work!

[Quercus]

Right...I understand. You don't use the shock in anger. The shock is still a punishment for not listening to the beep,or the command.

Some dogs do great with shock collars....some do not. I can not, as a professional dog trainer, stand by as someone advocates it as the solution to dog training problems as long as you are someone who can control your temper. That is dangerous, and irresponsible advice...

I am sorry if you think I am being argumentative. But as long as you advise hundreds of people here that it is the perfect solution, I will argue that it is not. I am honestly glad it helped you...I don't say that with sarcasm; and I absolutely believe that your dog is more relaxed, loving and trained. But I think it is a really dangerous thing to suggest to people when you haven't seen their dogs, or know their problems.

That's the nice thing about positive reinforcement training, you can make suggestions to anyone and not worry about doing more damage than has already been done.

[lvoss]

That's the nice thing about positive reinforcement training, you can make suggestions to anyone and not worry about doing more damage than has already been done.
I totally agree, Andrea. There is a really good article in the Whole Dog Journal this month on training. You have to subscribe to read it. It is a great journal, lots of good information. Subscribers can search the archives and find great articles on Food, Separation Anxiety, and so many other topics that have come up on here.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/10_5/features/Positive_Dog_Training_15931-1.html

[Kate]

I know you aren't arguing; just want what is best for the dogs as I do.

I never said it was a perfect solution, or advised everyone to try it. As I said in my first post, it would depend on the dog, and the person, if you used it or not! If you have a bad temper, I'd advise you to never use it. If you have the patience of Job, and the dog doesn't want to listen any other way, you could try it! Just use the training video they give you, and learn to do it right first!

[lvoss]

I I never said it was a perfect solution, or advised everyone to try it. As I said in my first post, it would depend on the dog, and the person, if you used it or not! If you have a bad temper, I'd advise you to never use it. If you have the patience of Job, and the dog doesn't want to listen any other way, you could try it! Just use the training video they give you, and learn to do it right first!
These two sentences are a contradiction. If you are not advising people to try it then you would not have written the last 2 sentences. This advice could be utterly disasterous because it does not take into account the temperament of the dog at all. I do not think it is a good thing to recommend or advise people to try shock collars or other coercive methods.

1. Some dogs will escalate when coercive techniques are used. This means that if you have an aggressive dog it will become more aggressive. Even a dog that is not aggressive can escalate to aggression when it does not understand why it is being punished. I have seen this happen and it happens quickly.

2. Some dogs are very sensitive. Giving even the mildest of shocks or correction could permanently damage any hope of gaining the dog's trust and destroy its confidence. I have seen this happen also.

I whole heartedly support what Andrea said about positive reinforcement. Positive training methods are all about building a positive relationship between you and your dog. Positive reinforcement helps to build trust and confidence in a dog. I personally have seen the difference in the attitude and outlook of a dog that positive training vs. coercive training makes and it is huge.

[Kate]

All I'm saying, is that even though a lot of people don't approve, it worked wonderfully for us, because we didn't abuse it! We use positive reinforcement as much as we can also! I totally agree with you, that it is the best method! I used it with our first two dogs! Both came when called, did many tricks, and were very loving! We lost the first dog at 14 years, and the second at sixteen! They were both very well behaved! It didn't work with this dog, and the collar, plus positive reinforcement, did!

[tanza]

I don't know if your other dogs were Basenjis or not, don't remember if you said so or not, however, it is really not in their nature to come when called especially if they are sighting something much better then you. I have a pretty big yard and if I watch my Basenjis (when they were young, 3 of the 4 are over 14 and pretty much deaf, or more deaf then their "selective" hearing as young dogs)... but anyway, back to the story, I would watch them in the yard crusin the bushes for critters... I would call them... and watch their ears flick back towards me... did they come, nope, not if what they were interested in was better then what they thought I had for them.... One of the reasons that we recommend that Basenjis are not to be trusted off lead especially where cars are involved.... in an open field situation, mine stick pretty much with me with no problem... but at my house, I would never ever trust them loose in the front yard... not for a minute...

[Quercus]

All I'm saying, is that even though a lot of people don't approve, it worked wonderfully for us, because we didn't abuse it!

And all I'm saying is it worked wonderfully for you because your dog responded well to it. A dog can fail to respond well to a shock collar even if the trainer doesn't abuse it. A person could use a shock collar perfectly, and sparingly, and STILL cause her dog to adopt a superstitious fear of an unintended external cue.

Punishment works in training...no one ever said it doesn't. It also often comes along with some unintended consequences.

[Duke]

All I'm saying, is that even though a lot of people don't approve, it worked wonderfully for us, because we didn't abuse it! We use positive reinforcement as much as we can also! I totally agree with you, that it is the best method! I used it with our first two dogs! Both came when called, did many tricks, and were very loving! We lost the first dog at 14 years, and the second at sixteen! They were both very well behaved! It didn't work with this dog, and the collar, plus positive reinforcement, did!
Hi Kate - So sorry for the loss of your 2 furbabies. I'm sure they were wonderful family members. And I understand your point here! You are using the shock collar responsibly, unlike some folk that may use it as punishment. Every Basenji and dog is different in their adaptability to certain training methods.

I have an electric invisible underground fence. . . I have it to keep my furbaby inside the boundry lines of my property. (Our neighborhood association has a "no visible fence rule".) Duke's electronic collar emits beeps when he gets close to lines within 5 feet. He will be shocked every time he gets within 1 foot. We got this fence when he was 4 mos old, early training. Don't know, it may not work with more mature dogs. However, Duke knows his boundry and usually has no problem. Daisy will get her collar this month. She is now 4 mos old. She will learn like Duke did - young. Both are very smart. Daisy's collar cost $200 training included. (not cheap)

The only problem we've had was to be negligent once to test the batteries. They do wear out with frequent activity (boundry useage). I did have a scare recently as Duke forged over the weak current to scare a dog and his walker. Lucky for me, dog walker stood still so I could recover Duke from danger. :eek: I was so scared!!! Please make sure the collar batteries are tested and replaced when needed. :)

[Quercus]

<<Duke's electronic collar emits beeps when he gets close to lines within 5 feet. He will be shocked every time he gets within 1 foot.>>

Exactly...if Duke disregards the beep, he gets a consequence, or punishment. Shock devices ARE punishment. That doesn't mean they are bad, or cruel, or inhumane. But there is no other way to use them than punishment...or negative consequence ocurring after an undesired behavior, if you like that better.

[tanza]

Everyone has the thing that they are comfortable with.. as Andrea says... anything that emits shocks is and always will be punishment based... and for me I would never use an underground fence... it doesn't keep unwanted "guests, critter or human" out of the yard... only works on the one wearing the collar... and I have seen many dogs run right though the shock.. some will stop and I am glad yours does... me, I would never trust them....

[dash]

This is a good thread. We have thought about getting one for the same reason--to keep him from running off. the problem was he would run out the door and tear away. I think he would know the collar wasn't on and it would be mute. I also had remembered someone years ago saying it would not stop shocking for whatever reason and the dog having issues.

[Duke]

<<Duke's electronic collar emits beeps when he gets close to lines within 5 feet. He will be shocked every time he gets within 1 foot.>>

Exactly...if Duke disregards the beep, he gets a consequence, or punishment. Shock devices ARE punishment. That doesn't mean they are bad, or cruel, or inhumane. But there is no other way to use them than punishment...or negative consequence ocurring after an undesired behavior, if you like that better.
I agree it is a consequence, but not punishment b/c he has learned the consequence. IMO, the word punishment has a negative connotation, not the same as the word consequence. However, we teach our children and fur kids that for every good or bad action, there is a consequence - good or bad.

For my dogs own safety and enjoyment to run freely and fast as they can on my 1/2 acre lot, the underground fence is a solution. Otherwise, they'd be forever restricted on a leash. I am very happy for all who have a nice tall secure fence and don't have to depend on electrical fencing. It would be my preference.

FYI - With the underground fencing, the electrical frequency is calibrated with distance. If dog doesn't move away from the line, there is shock - Duhhh? I wouldn't know about the shock collar for training purposes.

[tanza]

Again, that is punishment... you can wrap it up in any name you want, consequence or whatever, getting a shock is not nice, it is punishment... and it is the same as consequence with that result... As you stated yourself, frequency is calibrated... too close, bigger shock... sorry but that is punishment to me....

Like I said I am glad your fence works for you, again I would never have one, nor would I recommend one... same as the shock collar...

[tanza]

This is a good thread. We have thought about getting one for the same reason--to keep him from running off. the problem was he would run out the door and tear away. I think he would know the collar wasn't on and it would be mute. I also had remembered someone years ago saying it would not stop shocking for whatever reason and the dog having issues.

You are much better off using positive training methods. It would be well worth the money spend to hire a trainer to help.... and obviously you have seen the negative side of trying to use a shock collar...

[Duke]

Again, that is punishment... you can wrap it up in any name you want, consequence or whatever, getting a shock is not nice, it is punishment... and it is the same as consequence with that result... As you stated yourself, frequency is calibrated... too close, bigger shock... sorry but that is punishment to me....

Like I said I am glad your fence works for you, again I would never have one, nor would I recommend one... same as the shock collar...

No - not bigger shock, just shock associated with whatever degree (1 - 10) is designed by owner on collar.

I agree, getting a shock is not nice - neither is alot of other things in life lessons. Thankfully, we can all express opinions here.

[tanza]

No - not bigger shock, just shock associated with whatever degree (1 - 10) is designed by owner on collar.

I agree, getting a shock is not nice - neither is alot of other things in life lessons. Thankfully, we can all express opinions here.

Exactly.... as with all things we will have to agree to disagree!

[Quercus]

I agree it is a consequence, but not punishment b/c he has learned the consequence. IMO, the word punishment has a negative connotation, not the same as the word consequence. However, we teach our children and fur kids that for every good or bad action, there is a consequence - good or bad.

For my dogs own safety and enjoyment to run freely and fast as they can on my 1/2 acre lot, the underground fence is a solution. Otherwise, they'd be forever restricted on a leash. I am very happy for all who have a nice tall secure fence and don't have to depend on electrical fencing. It would be my preference.

FYI - With the underground fencing, the electrical frequency is calibrated with distance. If dog doesn't move away from the line, there is shock - Duhhh? I wouldn't know about the shock collar for training purposes.

I just want to reiterate...I am NOT against underground fencing. I have lots of clients that use it successfully, and are very happy with it. I most likely wouldn't use it with my dogs, unless in conjunction with an existing fence.. but not because I think it doesn't work, or is cruel. I think it is the only real option for a lot of people. Remote shock collars and shock fences are very different things in the way that they operate. There is no room for human or operator error with a fence...dog gets too close..zap. No subjectivity, no flexibiltiy, no decision being made by the fence about how close is too close...the consequence is exactly the same every time.

Anyhow...we are just arguing semantics. In learning theory anything that you add to a learning situation which decreases the likelyhood of the behavior occuring again IS called a punishment. So when the dog ignores the beep, and shock is added, and the behavior of ignore the beep decreases....voila, punishment, consequence, whatever.

[nomrbddgs]

Every dog is individual and the fencing method may work for one but not the other. As Pat says-I would never trust mine. If focused enough they will run right through the fencing. As for the shock collar-some emit a beep, some don't and some you can shut it off. It will work with some dogs but not with all. Some dogs will turn aggressive if the collar is used without regard for the dog. You have to be right on time with the right strength of shock. Many people have a problem being on time and shock the poor thing out of turn. Then the poor dog becomes confused. I wouldn't use the collar on most dogs without trying other methods first.

[Solomon]

I rave read all of the post on the shock collars and to be quite honest I am confused! My basenji Solomon loves to escape thru the garage door and back fence gate any time he has a chance! I really try to watch him very closely but once he is free he does not respond to voice comands at all. He we go untill he finds another dog are something that intrest him. This is very scary because I don't think he has any street smarts at all! I have borrowed a shock collar to try, but I plan to use it only as a training device to see if I can stop this behavior, I really am conerned about its effects but I would be be so very upset if any thing ever happened to him while he was out on one of his adventures. I think you have to use the training device while he is thinking about his next move, in other words before he goes though the door, not after he has already escaped. I would like to hear opinions on there use!

[Quercus]

Using invisible fencing is one matter...shocking your dog as he runs thru an open door is quite another. For the shock collar to have any value at all, you need to give him a command like "stop", or "come" or SOMETHING that you have already taught him (something he really knows) and then if he doesn't do it, then you can use the shock as a correction.

Sounds like a big mess in the making to me...because if you slap the collar on him, figure he knows what he isn't supposed to do, then he bolts for the door, and you shock him...do you think he is then going to come running back to you? Most likely he will be really scared, and keep running. Shock collars are seriously dangerous in the hands of amatuer trainers.

I would suggest you invest time and money in a good trainer (I prefer positive reinforcement trainers, as opposed to punishment trainers), and train him not to bolt thru open doors...and then work really hard on modifying your garage and back gate so it is difficult for him to get thru them, in case he decides to try.

Remote shock collars (not Ins.Fen) are a quick fix "solution" that has the ability to scare and confuse your dog, and make your situation much worse. IMO they should ONLY be used by very experience trainers, and only in certain types of training, and only with certain dogs. IME most basenjis do not do well with these types of collars.

[dash]

I totally agree with Quercus. When Dash escaped this past week, he found a weakness in our chain-link fence, I grab a piece of cheese and just calmly call him. When he comes to me, I tell how good he is and pick him up. It has worked the past 2 times. He has no street smarts at all either. He just wants to run. The first rule we have is to never chase him. It is hard since he seems to go pretty far but I noticed he looks back and if he sees we aren't chasing he turns around. We just keep an eye on him. I want him to know coming to me is a positive thing. I understand what you are saying though. Dash tries to find a dog or something to play with. I chaulk it up to he needs more exercise.

I think the shock collar would back-fire. He is going to run to get away from the shock. Not neccesarily where you want him to go though.

[dmcarty]

another suggestion is if he is looking back - to run in a different direction - many times they will come to chase cause they don't want to miss anything.

[jys1011]

Dmcarty-soooo true..this has worked for me with C3PO when he has not been close eough to smell the lure :eek: and has wound up chasing me!

[Capt_Jack_our_Basenji]

When we first got Jack we had to buy a shock collar that goes off when they bark (yodel) because he would cry ALL night long and the WHOLE time he was outside to go potty...and we live in military housing. What the collar actually did was vibrate, lol i tried it on myself before we bought it. it gives a warning beep first and then if the noise continues it vibrates a little harder each time...IT WORKED WONDERS!! after just one day, we switched the collar to JUST warning beeps and he responded GREAT!! Now when we leave him or put him outside he is calm and quite. AND is STILL vocal when it is appropriate!! SO its just my opinion of course, but the vibrating collar ("shock collar") was awesome!!

[MaxBooBooBear]

Many, many years ago, when my boyfriend at the time and I got our first basenji, I suggested to BF that we try a shock collar to keep him from escaping when I forgot to close the garage door or backyard gate. BF promptly agreed wholeheartedly--thought it was a fantastic idea--but he suggested that I wear the collar so that I would get shocked anytime I left open a door or gate....hahahahaha. Needless to say, we never did get a shock collar.....and I am very, very dependable now about closing doors and gates:)