Does this breeder sound reputable?

[Brianne]

I life in Edmonton, AB and am having troubles finding anyone. I found this one lady who is somewhere in the Yukon. She says she is not a "full time" breeder (I imagine it's one of those scenarios where she has two basenjis and they mated). She is selling the pups for just $300.

Now the parts that are "good" (?):
-Health Guarantee
-Hereditary Congenital Defect Guarantee
-Health License
-Pedigree Certificate
-CKC registered

I'm no breeder and I've never bought a dog before, so this is all just mumbo jumbo to me. Are any of these good enough that you think it is safe to buy from her? Like I said, I am having huge problems finding the pups anywhere. There is also on in British Columbia that's up for adoption, it's a whippet/basenji mix and I really love him too. But, I don't know if they ship and the 11 hour drive is just too long.

Please help if you can, I'm a bit confused. I've been researching the breed a lot and I really don't want to have a sickly little dog. My parents bought our chinese crested from a "reputable" breeder, and we learned later she was inbreeding and our dog has epilepsy now - good thing we got vet insurance before they found that out.

Anyways, please help!

[Kipawa]

Right off the bat, I feel the price for the dog is low. It gives me a feeling that this is purely a backyard breeder. Will she take the dog back FOR ANY REASON if you cannot keep the dog? A good breeder will. What about the parentage of her dogs - were they Fanconi tested and are the test results available online? What other testing has been done on the parents and the puppies at this point? Hips? Eyes?

I would also hesitate to buy a puppy from someone who just had an "oops" mating of two dogs. A lot goes into breeding quality puppies, and it is usually a very well planned out situation.

I understand your keen desire to own a basenji (I am in the same situation as you) but please be careful who you purchase from. It can mean a huge difference for you and your dog in the future.

Have you checked out the BCOA website for breeders? Just like me here in BC, there is not much to select from. When the time comes for me, I will probably be looking to a U.S. breeder (someone in the Pacific Northwest). I have attended some Washington state shows and have met some great breeders and their wonderful looking and dispositioned dogs.

Good luck in your hunt. Wishing you the best.

[Brianne]

Right off the bat, I feel the price for the dog is low. It gives me a feeling that this is purely a backyard breeder. Will she take the dog back FOR ANY REASON if you cannot keep the dog? A good breeder will. What about the parentage of her dogs - were they Fanconi tested and are the test results available online? What other testing has been done on the parents and the puppies at this point? Hips? Eyes?

I would also hesitate to buy a puppy from someone who just had an "oops" mating of two dogs. A lot goes into breeding quality puppies, and it is usually a very well planned out situation.

I understand your keen desire to own a basenji (I am in the same situation as you) but please be careful who you purchase from. It can mean a huge difference for you and your dog in the future.

Have you checked out the BCOA website for breeders? Just like me here in BC, there is not much to select from. When the time comes for me, I will probably be looking to a U.S. breeder (someone in the Pacific Northwest). I have attended some Washington state shows and have met some great breeders and their wonderful looking and dispositioned dogs.

Good luck in your hunt. Wishing you the best.

Thanks, and I do agree. I think I'm going to pass on this breeder. I actually googled her email address (after her name turned up nothing) and I found about 8 other ads for different breeds - bulldogs, bichon frises, etc. I think she may be running a puppy mill, so I might even report her if I have any proof to it.

I'm going to keep searching, and maybe try to find a way to adopt the pup from BC. Thanks!

[Kipawa]

Definitely sounds like a backyard breeder.

Make sure to do your homework on the BC pup, if that is the direction you are going. You'll want a dog that is a good addition to your family - one that will blend in with your lifestyle and activity level. In the future, I *might* consider a rescue also (Sharron, are you reading this?), but the basenji will have to still have the personality, qualities and health that feel right for us.

[khanis]

I would also hesitate to buy a puppy from someone who just had an "oops" mating of two dogs. A lot goes into breeding quality puppies, and it is usually a very well planned out situation.


Sorry Fran, but I disagree with this statement.
Even accidents happen to the best of breeders.
Just because it is an "oops" does not mean it wouldn't be a decent breeding or produce fabulous companions.
What is important is the temperaments of the sire/dam and those in their pedigree, as well as the health testing involved throughout the pedigree.

Brianne-
I would bet that there is little to none if they have many other breeds.
I haven't ever heard of someone up there either, so can't imagine who it would be.

Best of luck finding your forever companion!

[sharronhurlbut]

Smart of you to do your homework before you buy a b.
Getting a b who is health tested is so worth the extra $$..just for the peace of mind.

[nomrbddgs]

Would you care to share the dam's name if you know it? I also don't know of anyone who sold a B in the Yukon. It's not on our radar.

[DebraDownSouth]

Please please please consider contacting BRAT about adopting. So many need homes.

[YodelDogs]

Please please please consider contacting BRAT about adopting. So many need homes.

Basenjis from breeders also need homes.

[nomrbddgs]

Basenjis from breeders also need homes.

And there are benefits from the health perspective to temperment of the dog that you know about.

[Kipawa]

Sorry Fran, but I disagree with this statement.


Kathy, you are right. I stand corrected. Thanks for making me clarify, because I did not explain myself well enough. It was more in the context of a BYB producing puppies that will be ill, not sound, not live long, etc. And I do understand that even then the offspring could still be wonderful pets.

From a reputable breeder, I would have no problem in a puppy from an "oops" breeding.

[DebraDownSouth]

I am not knocking responsible breeders nor their dogs... you should know that already. But even when I had litters, I ALWAYS queried the prospective home to see if a rescue would do. Sorry, I just think even breeders need to push all they can to rescue. And if this person is considering a dog in that price range, then rescue is the answer... not a byb or puppymill dog. I doubt many responsible breeders can begin to place a pup for much under $2,000. Certainly not under $1,000.

[tanza]

My pups are right around 1000.00, I consider much over 1000.00 over the top for a puppy.... and there are many responsible breeders particularly in the Mid West that place pups for around 850.00

[YodelDogs]

I doubt many responsible breeders can begin to place a pup for much under $2,000. Certainly not under $1,000.

I'm not trying to argue with you, Debra. I just want to clarify a few things about this topic.

In the US, virtually all responsible breeders place their puppies for $700-1,000and that range includes show prospects.


And if this person is considering a dog in that price range, then rescue is the answer... not a byb or puppymill dog.

FWIW, I did Basenji rescue for a decade and I know for a fact that at least 95% of all rescued Basenjis were produced by BYBs and puppy mills. The initial adoption fee for a rescue may be a little bit less than a responsibly bred dog but the risk for health issues may prove higher, and far more expensive, in the long run.

[dcmclcm4]

The price of $1000-$1500 is usually what a petstore B is priced when it first arrives at 8 weeks at least the ones I have seen at PetLand. The price goes down as it gets older. One can finance a pup like a piece of furniture.

Jennifer

[DebraDownSouth]

I haven't bought a basenji in 8 years, but back then Robyn even YOU quoted me something like $1500. Glad to hear prices lower, but again if the person looking at a $300 dog, $700 to $1000 a big jump for most.

As for health ... considering my utterly champion pedigree for 5 generation dog who had major health issues, autoimmune and died with lymphoma... nothing is a guarantee. I am a bit surprised to hear breeders almost discouraging rescue. Do I believe that a puppy from a breeder with generations of genetic testing has better chance for not having those genetic problems... sure. But over-all health... not really. Research doesn't support it nor does my personal experiences.

I have heard rescuers say that breeders bash rescues... I honestly have to say while I have heard it out the yingyang with both Chow and Rottie breeders, this is my first experience with it among Basenji. It makes me very sad. With that, am out of this topic and thread.

[sharronhurlbut]

Oh, Debra, don't leave. Some areas of the country don't have a good network with rescue. I am lucky, and in the PNW, the breeders are wonderful...
They support rescue, which makes my joy so much easier.

[debbi j.]

FWIW, I did Basenji rescue for a decade and I know for a fact that at least 95% of all rescued Basenjis were produced by BYBs and puppy mills. The initial adoption fee for a rescue may be a little bit less than a responsibly bred dog but the risk for health issues may prove higher, and far more expensive, in the long run.[/QUOTE]

Hi, Robyn,

Maybe things were different when you were doing rescue. You might be surprised to know how many rescues we get who were bred by "reputable breeders" and whose breeders, once contacted by rescue, would not take back their dogs even though a contract existed between the individual buyer and the breeder. We are dealing with several of these instances right now.

[sharronhurlbut]

Debbi J, I do have to take exception about your info. 95% in my area were not by byb.
Sometimes we knew who bred the dog, and were able to get the breeders to "step" up.

[debbi j.]

Sharon, I was quoting Robyn.

[sharronhurlbut]

Sorry, I knew that, just typed the wrong name..should have been Robyn.

Robyn, I do have to say Debbi J is right, as far as my knowlege goes.
Jennifer Hill, who is part of this group, can tell you just how many puppymill b are posted.
She is the angel who deals with this.

[lvoss]

I know that when I was actively doing rescue the majority of rescues came from either BYBs (breeders not actively involved in the basenji community) or puppy mills. A few came from breeders known in the basenji community and only a handful of those outright refused to take responsibility. I don't know what the percentages were because I never calculated them.

I don't think that Robyn meant to imply that there are not well known breeders who are not taking responsibility but that in her experience those are not where most of the dogs are coming from. At this point in time, most of the rescues I am seeing are coming from internet sales by BYBs.

[nomrbddgs]

<< if the person looking at a $300 dog, $700 to $1000 a big jump for most. >>

If a person can't afford $300, then they shouldn't be getting any dog IMO. Just a vet check right after that is at least 40-50 bucks. Wasn't someone just talking about this earlier in this post? You don't want to put more money into the dog, but you're going to get another one? Doesn't this happen a lot to the people that put dogs in rescue? They conveniently get rid of a dog because of vet costs or lifestyle changes then turn around within (usually) a year and get another dog?



<<I have heard rescuers say that breeders bash rescues... I honestly have to say while I have heard it out the yingyang with both Chow and Rottie breeders, this is my first experience with it among Basenji.>>

I have heard this bashing from rescuers as well. Most rescuers who don't have experience with reputable breeders do this as well. The facts are the facts-there are bad people on both sides of this particular coin, just as there are good people.

When did this conversation turn into 'rescuers vs breeders' ?? Aren't we supposed to be about the same thing? Getting dogs into the right homes??

[renaultf1]

<< if the person looking at a $300 dog, $700 to $1000 a big jump for most. >>

If a person can't afford $300, then they shouldn't be getting any dog IMO. Just a vet check right after that is at least 40-50 bucks. Wasn't someone just talking about this earlier in this post? You don't want to put more money into the dog, but you're going to get another one? Doesn't this happen a lot to the people that put dogs in rescue? They conveniently get rid of a dog because of vet costs or lifestyle changes then turn around within (usually) a year and get another dog?

I 100% agree with this. The initial purchase price (whether it is $300 or $1000) is only a fraction of what it costs to own a dog. And yes, in this thread and in other threads, we've seen people re-home a dog (that sounds like training might be able to fix) that "can't afford" a behaviorist, only to turn around and buy another dog - or plan on buying another dog within a year. They don't listen to the advice that their home situation (lack of structure or training - animal & human) might be the cause of the behavior problems and expect immediate fixes. Their view is the dog is a failure, not that they were a major contributing factor to its failure.

Personally I've come to dread the new puppy threads each winter because many of them have purchased, without listening to the advice given, and you know that a good portion of the pups shown off will be re-homed.

I don't think anyone here is against rescue. At the same time, I don't think rescue should be against anyone going to a responsible breeder. It is an individual choice. I made the choice to initially get 2 retired show dogs - they needed a good home. And I didn't make the wrong choice - for me or for my dogs.

[YodelDogs]

I haven't bought a basenji in 8 years, but back then Robyn even YOU quoted me something like $1500.

I'm sorry but you are mistaken. I have never asked more than $800 for a puppy and that includes show prospects. But, considering the puppy mill located just a few hours away charges $1200-1500, I may have to raise my price just to keep up.

[YodelDogs]

Hi, Robyn,

Maybe things were different when you were doing rescue.

It was easier to trace the origins of each rescue back then. I did quite a bit of detective work and kept accurate records of my findings. The majority of Basenjis that came into local rescue were from two puppy mills or a cluster of BYBs who bred their dogs back and forth. My estimate of 95% coming from BYBs or puppy mills was actually generous considering only 1 out of 50+ rescues I rehomed came from a responsible breeder.

Debbi, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't BRAT rehome approximately 500 Basenjis each year?

[DebraDownSouth]

I 100% agree with this. The initial purchase price (whether it is $300 or $1000) is only a fraction of what it costs to own a dog. ...
I don't think anyone here is against rescue. At the same time, I don't think rescue should be against anyone going to a responsible breeder.

Sorry, again an additional 700 to BUY the dog on top of the care IS a lot for most people. Period.

Nor did anyone bash breeders or getting from breeders. It was breeders bashing rescue dogs or inferring (or out and out claiming) not healthy or risky temperament. From breeders who if they know ANYTHING know that temperament testing is as valid on a rescue as their own pups (well unless they suck at temperament testing)...and is VERY reliable on older pups and adults. Now I am done on this topic. I left here crying yesterday because I couldn't believe people I thought were knowledgeable and cared about the breed were pushing breeder dogs and putting down rescues. So I have my big girl panties on and my rose colored glasses removed. 'nuff said.

[khanis]

Arlene,
I have to respectfully disagree. Not everyone can fork out $1000 for a dog. Does that mean they can't take good care of the animal and pay for an emergency vet bill? No.
Heck, I don't have $1000 laying around in the event my engine blew... part of the life of a FT student and single mother.

I place my pups for $950. I have worked with MANY folks on payment plans, and reduced prices for the right home. I placed a lovely boy [that I bred] that is nearly 3 years of age and neutered... for $100 last week. He is in a fabulous home and gets to be a service dog! Sure, he lives in DT Portland, so no fenced yard, but he will live the life of Riley and have more attention than he could here in a group of 6 dogs. And I know for a fact this gal would NOT have had $1000 for a dog. Period.

Debra,
I do not, nor will I ever push rescue on folks. I tell them their options. For some folks, it is the best option. For others, it just will NOT work.
I have kids, so I know that is imperative to many families getting a pup... my pups are kid-proofed more than any puppy could possibly be that does NOT have children living under the roof. If they hit 8 wks in my house.. they are literally bomb-proof to all noises and kinds of people. You don't generally find that in rescue.

[debbi j.]

It was easier to trace the origins of each rescue back then. I did quite a bit of detective work and kept accurate records of my findings. The majority of Basenjis that came into local rescue were from two puppy mills or a cluster of BYBs who bred their dogs back and forth. My estimate of 95% coming from BYBs or puppy mills was actually generous considering only 1 out of 50+ rescues I rehomed came from a responsible breeder.

Debbi, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't BRAT rehome approximately 500 Basenjis each year?

It's closer to 350 basenjis a year that BRAT places. We average 500 or more rescue forms a year from people wanting to rehome their dogs. We are usually able to help approximately 100 - 150 families keep their b's through help and education.

BTW, there are good breeders who do take back their dogs. We really appreciate it.

Debbi

[YodelDogs]

It's closer to 350 basenjis a year that BRAT places.

Thank you, Debbi. I think I was adding in rescues rehomed by other organizations and private rescuers to come up with the 500 number that was stuck in my head.

[DebraDownSouth]

Debra,
I do not, nor will I ever push rescue on folks. I tell them their options. For some folks, it is the best option. For others, it just will NOT work.
I have kids, so I know that is imperative to many families getting a pup... my pups are kid-proofed more than any puppy could possibly be that does NOT have children living under the roof. If they hit 8 wks in my house.. they are literally bomb-proof to all noises and kinds of people. You don't generally find that in rescue. I don't mean push down throats, but I push them to consider. For the rest, sorry I am shaking my head. Any decent rescue foster home works to bomb proof too. And they evaluate the dogs. And you know what, most of those have only a few dogs in their house so they can closely evaluate and spend time... unlike breeders with 10, 20 or 30 dogs. And they place depending on the dog and the family. And if you really believe people with children should only get puppies, I am sorry that you are impressively misinformed. There is a difference between WANT a puppy and it be imperative for any other reason. There are situations where a puppy IS important. But it isn't for temperament or behavior.

In fact I suggest strongly that a family with children who is capable of training a puppy doesn't NEED a puppy but can do it. A family that thinks it NEEDS a puppy BECAUSE they have children probably haven't the ability to TRAIN IT OR THEIR KIDS and don't need one. Hmmm.. just a thought.

And someone who can only bond with a pup doesn't need a dog at all.

That said, I applaud your placements of dogs over money. That is what good breeders do. But it sounds like you think bomb-proofing requires kids under the roof... so I guess you think people with children should ONLY get pups from someone like you. OOOPS Robyn et al... you are now relegated to those awful rescues that also are not as good as those with children.

The truth is, exposing a puppy to many many many situations, whether kids live IN your home or not, prepares and bomb-proofs. And you know that... or should. And the next truth is that no matter what YOU do, you place a puppy in an idiot's home where a child hurts the dog, your bombproofing for kids goes down the drain. You place a pup who has limited or even NO experience with children ... but otherwise "bomb proofed"... into a home with parents who supervise and get correct behavior from their kids, the pup is going to be perfectly fine.

I deal weekly with people who got pups from reputable breeders who have issues. Some, maybe most, because the breeder placed dogs in homes that were not appropriate or didn't recognize the temperament of the puppy.

The Arabs have a saying... trust in G-d but tie your camel. Yeah, if you want a puppy whether it is from a rescue or breeder, do your homework. Being a breeder with champions out the ears doesn't make your pups great pets or great pets in the wrong home. And I haven't had a rescue I have adopted over the years... except my chow/coyote mix... that I wouldn't put their health AND temperament up against the best bred dogs of their breed. And that was the ONLY point I ever meant to make. Stop bashing rescues for health or temperament.

[dcmclcm4]

The rescues I have had through my own independent rescue from 2001 to the present have more health issues than the ones from B.E.A.R.-Basenji Education and Rescue in OH from 1992 to approx. 2000. I rescue mostly commercial breeder dogs or their offspring but some came from BYBs. I think the problem is the inbreeding. Reputable breeders are smarter now about who not to sell their pups to so there is a limited number of breeding dogs these other breeders can obtain. I used to see Chs in some of the early rescue dogs pedigrees, now I rarely see any even in the 5th generation.

I recommend getting eye exams and thyroid testing done on rescue Bs as these are the problems my rescues have. Fanconi has not been a major problem but I have not rescued an entire litter with Fanconi which is possible since these breeders do not test. I have only rescued three Bs with Fanconi since 1992, two were affected and a young one that has tested probably affected.

Jennifer

[lvoss]

I don't mean push down throats, but I push them to consider. For the rest, sorry I am shaking my head. Any decent rescue foster home works to bomb proof too. And they evaluate the dogs. And you know what, most of those have only a few dogs in their house so they can closely evaluate and spend time... unlike breeders with 10, 20 or 30 dogs. And they place depending on the dog and the family. And if you really believe people with children should only get puppies, I am sorry that you are impressively misinformed. There is a difference between WANT a puppy and it be imperative for any other reason. There are situations where a puppy IS important. But it isn't for temperament or behavior.

I think you are the one who is impressively misinformed. I don't know about all areas of the country but at least in this area, the responsible breeders don't have 10, 20, 30 dogs, they have maybe 5-6 dogs and they are house dogs and well socialized, well loved, and trained. I suppose with a litter in the house almost any breeder could technically have 10 dogs but that doesn't mean they aren't carefully socialized, observed and evaluated.

I also disagree that temperament and behavior are not of primary importance when bringing any new dog into a household. It can be very difficult for families to find adult dogs that have been well socialized to the chaos of the modern family and of the temperament to take it all in stride. That doesn't mean that there are not adult dogs that will fit the bill but they are definately not the most commonly seen in the surrendered dog population.

[nomrbddgs]

That said, I applaud your placements of dogs over money. That is what good breeders do. But it sounds like you think bomb-proofing requires kids under the roof... so I guess you think people with children should ONLY get pups from someone like you. OOOPS Robyn et al... you are now relegated to those awful rescues that also are not as good as those with children.

I deal weekly with people who got pups from reputable breeders who have issues. Some, maybe most, because the breeder placed dogs in homes that were not appropriate or didn't recognize the temperament of the puppy.

Stop bashing rescues for health or temperament.

Just a few things, there are quite a few rescues that clearly state, on almost all of their adoptions, 'better off in a home with children over 12, etc'. So what is that saying? Obviously, a lot of these dogs are felt to be not good with children-and that is put out by your evaluators/fosters. So how can it be said that rescues are well socialized with children and are able to be placed with children? I'm not saying all rescues dogs are like this, but a reality is most are because most of these dogs have little socialization with adults, never mind children.

What people are you dealing with that got pups from 'reputable' breeders? If they were truly reputable breeders, they would take the dog BACK! Then you wouldn't have to deal with them. As a breeder, we have to think of the whole household and what is the best fit. I have turned down a lot of people because I simply feel they are not appropriate for one of my dogs, or I don't have the right temperment for them. If it was the right fit, the dog is happy and the people are happy. And yes, I have placed my dogs at lower prices when the right home fits as well. I prefer to have a proper home for the dog than have an unhappy dog. Which is what I have done recently as well. So, as breeders, we do think of the best interests of the dog as well. If a dog is not happy in my home, I will find the right home for him.

Most of the rescues that are dealt with do come with issues irregardless of what you say. Whether they are mental or physical. It is a crap shoot in the long run with any dog. I agree with that as to the physical well being, no one, NO ONE, can determine long term what can happen to anyone or anything physically or mentally. Things happen. The reason they are in rescues is that the 'reputable' breeder (as you say) is not taking them back. Sorry, but they can't possibly be that great if they won't take one of their own back.

I seriously don't know what 'reputable' breeders you have come into contact with, but maybe you should talk to some more truly, reputable breeders before you lump us all into your category. By the way, I don't have 10, 20 or 30 dogs either. I do know people who have. But at this point, that is because they have taken a few of their dogs back and also have rescues they are trying to place. I have the boxer rescue, who will not live another 4 years, an old dog that does need to be put down as she is now in pain most of the time and her health does not give her quality of life, two female b's and one neutered male b and one puppy. So, am I one of your 'reputable' breeders as well? I take good care of my dogs, they are all pets first, show dogs second.

I'm not trying to 'bash' you, I don't think anyone is here, but we are trying to educate you as to what a 'reputable' breeder really is. Based on your experience with what you call 'reputable' breeders, I think maybe you should re-evaluate and stop lumping us into the same category. I, in fact, do more health testing on my 'pets' that most lay people do. I think on this forum, most people do more health testing than the average 'pet' person as well.

[DebraDownSouth]

I think you are the one who is impressively misinformed. I don't know about all areas of the country but at least in this area, the responsible breeders don't have 10, 20, 30 dogs, they have maybe 5-6 dogs and they are house dogs and well socialized, well loved, and trained. I suppose with a litter in the house almost any breeder could technically have 10 dogs but that doesn't mean they aren't carefully socialized, observed and evaluated.

I also disagree that temperament and behavior are not of primary importance when bringing any new dog into a household.
Wow thank you for missing the essence of what I said and latching onto numbers. We'll forget that I met several breeders at Nationals who said they had 8 to 12 ADULTS in their homes, which meant with even 2 litters up to 20. I was trying to make a point. Since it seemed to fly over your head, I'll make it basic.
It is disingenuous to slur the "bomb proofing" and socialization of rescues who are usually in homes with only a few dogs compared to a breeder's time per dog who has several adults and a litter. The rescues are fully as able to socialize. THAT was the only point, not whether you know anyone with 10 dogs in the house. I'd be really snarky and pull up breeder web sites to prove numbers 10 and up, but since that wasn't the POINT, won't bother.

Nor did I say TEMPERAMENT wasn't an issue. But you knew that. I said the temperament of rescues is fine, as fine as breeders, when a rescue does it's job and the breeder does its job. Again, you knew that was the point and pretending I indicated a TEMPERAMENT just in of itself wasn't important is incredible.

[DebraDownSouth]

double post

[DebraDownSouth]

Just a few things, there are quite a few rescues that clearly state, on almost all of their adoptions, 'better off in a home with children over 12, etc'. So what is that saying? Obviously, a lot of these dogs are felt to be not good with children-and that is put out by your evaluators/fosters. So how can it be said that rescues are well socialized with children and are able to be placed with children? I'm not saying all rescues dogs are like this, but a reality is most are because most of these dogs have little socialization with adults, never mind children.

What people are you dealing with that got pups from 'reputable' breeders?
Most of the rescues that are dealt with do come with issues irregardless of what you say. Whether they are mental or physical. It is a crap shoot in the long run with any dog. I agree with that as to the physical well being, no one, NO ONE, can determine long term what can happen to anyone or anything physically or mentally. Things happen. The reason they are in rescues is that the 'reputable' breeder (as you say) is not taking them back. Sorry, but they can't possibly be that great if they won't take one of their own back.

I seriously don't know what 'reputable' breeders you have come into contact with, but maybe you should talk to some more truly, reputable breeders before you lump us all into your category
.
I'm not trying to 'bash' you, I don't think anyone is here, but we are trying to educate you as to what a 'reputable' breeder really is. Based on your experience with what you call 'reputable' breeders, I think maybe you should re-evaluate and stop lumping us into the same category. I, in fact, do more health testing on my 'pets' that most lay people do. I think on this forum, most people do more health testing than the average 'pet' person as well.

1. You made my point for me, thank you. Rescues who evaluate KNOW the temperament and place in the right home. A rescue who is suitable for a home with kids is as safe as a breeder's dog that is safe for a home with kids. Thanks!

2. Sorry, but the breeders I meant are not JUST basenji ones. And sorry again, but as has already been pointed out, lots of responsible breeder pups hit rescue. The really responsible ones take the dogs back, but the owners didn't contact for help before dumping. That wasn't a slur on the breeder, you can't MAKE people call you if they have an issue. Of course, routine calls to stay involved help, but even then some owners don't want to admit issues. I wasn't lumping all breeders. As for health testing... um, not to be snarky, but DUH. You are breeding, testing more for genetic issues is critical. Most pet owners, even those you place pups with, will do only what they understand is important for the health of their pet. One reason I REQUIRED hips and elbow prelim at 6 mos and final at 2 yrs for my Rotties... pet or show. I worked to help them understand that even though they weren't breeding, I needed that information to have a full picture of what I was producing. And it was often pulling teeth. But the bottom line is that the average pet owner cares about overall health and you cannot show me one study by an reputable source that shows genetic testing provides anything other than less occurrence of that genetic issue. Glad you test, YOU SHOULD! But it doesn't mean a puppy from you will be one bit healthier beyond genetic issues, live longer or have less health problems than a rescue. It doesn't. And while the "mutts are healthier" mantra also doesn't hold much water, neither does claims that rescues are unhealthier. Of course if you have any dog, even from a responsible breeder, who has been malnourished, abused, sick without treatment... there are problems. But that is environment, NOT genetics. So again, a healthy rescue is as healthy as a healthy pup. I don't know rescues pushing unhealthy dogs on unsuspecting families. I do know angels who take sick and needy rescues. But again, that has nothing to do with trying to indicate that rescues are not the perfect answer for as many homes, if not more, than a puppy from a responsible breeder.

3. Educate me about a responsible breeder? Hello, I am fully aware of what a RESPONSIBLE breeder is. I don't need an education. The education needed here is for people to stop bashing rescues as less overall healthy than responsibly bred dogs once the main issues are eliminated. The education needed here is for people to stop pretending that a rescue who has often been in foster and evaluated for MONTHS so that their temperament is truly known is not as safe or good as any puppy. That, not my clear understanding of what a responsible breeder is, is the educational lack in this thread. And I AM bashing the bashing of rescues, no apology.

[sharronhurlbut]

I believe some area's of the country don't support rescue, that folks do use rescue as a dumping ground for dogs..I have heard many stories of this. Course, that makes rescue angry.
I live in the PNW. We have only 3 breeders I can think of, off hand who are NOT responsible. This is over 4 states. So, clearly, I live in a more responsible area of the country.
Not only to the responsible rescues support me, but often they will foster a b that isn't even theirs, will help with transport, and do home checks or give me tips for homes for
these dogs. I can't tell you how helpful that is.
I think all this depends on what area your in and if you have support to do rescue work.

Rescue does do all they can to find the right home for the right dog. Just a breeders do.
I don't see this as a conflict, I do think its possible to make it a win/win.

[lvoss]

Wow thank you for missing the essence of what I said and latching onto numbers. We'll forget that I met several breeders at Nationals who said they had 8 to 12 ADULTS in their homes, which meant with even 2 litters up to 20. I was trying to make a point. Since it seemed to fly over your head, I'll make it basic.
It is disingenuous to slur the "bomb proofing" and socialization of rescues who are usually in homes with only a few dogs compared to a breeder's time per dog who has several adults and a litter. The rescues are fully as able to socialize. THAT was the only point, not whether you know anyone with 10 dogs in the house. I'd be really snarky and pull up breeder web sites to prove numbers 10 and up, but since that wasn't the POINT, won't bother.

Nor did I say TEMPERAMENT wasn't an issue. But you knew that. I said the temperament of rescues is fine, as fine as breeders, when a rescue does it's job and the breeder does its job. Again, you knew that was the point and pretending I indicated a TEMPERAMENT just in of itself wasn't important is incredible.

Clearly, you have a beef with breeders and I think I did get your point perfectly.

You said that rescue volunteers are better able to socialize and evaluate dogs because they have fewer dogs. I think you are impressively misinformed on several points. Are there breeders with more than 10 dogs in their household? I am sure there are but I don't think it is the "norm" in many places. I think many breeders have moved away from keeping large numbers of dogs and see many that are co-owning puppies with their puppy buyers who are amenable to them showing them and later breeding them. Even if they do have more than 10 dogs that does mean they don't do a great job at providing their puppies with critical socialization and early puppyhood experiences they need to become stable adults. Secondly, no matter how stellar a rescue volunteer is at training and rehabilitating, lack of good socialization during critical development periods can never really be fully substituted. Thirdly, I know many rescue volunteers with more dogs in their home than some responsible breeders.

I do think that you implied that temperament issues were a non-issue in rescues and that is just not true and since behavior and temperament are so critical, I think it is wrong to imply that rescue organizations are somehow going to make those non-issues simply through the fostering and evaluating process.

I think rescues are a great option for some people but they come with huge question marks that make then a less suitable option for some households and no matter what you say, HEALTH and TEMPERAMENT are some of those huge question marks. It is far better though to adopt a rescue with these question marks though then it is to go out and buy from a BYB where you are still going to have those question marks and won't have the support of the rescue organization to help you work through them.

[lvoss]

Rescue does do all they can to find the right home for the right dog. Just a breeders do.
I don't see this as a conflict, I do think its possible to make it a win/win.

Absolutely Sharron.

I think that things work best when breeders and rescue work together to make sure that households get the right dog for their situation. Not all dog owners should get puppies. But not all households are right for rescues either. When both sides are willing to refer to the other when appropriate everyone wins because the dogs stay in their homes.

[tanza]

Educate me about a responsible breeder? Hello, I am fully aware of what a RESPONSIBLE breeder is. I don't need an education. The education needed here is for people to stop bashing rescues as less overall healthy than responsibly bred dogs once the main issues are eliminated. The education needed here is for people to stop pretending that a rescue who has often been in foster and evaluated for MONTHS so that their temperament is truly known is not as safe or good as any puppy. That, not my clear understanding of what a responsible breeder is, is the educational lack in this thread. And I AM bashing the bashing of rescues, no apology.

Not sure who you think here is "bashing" rescue? We are just pointing out that a rescue is not the best choice for all people. And even if you look at BRAT, how many of those dogs say "no children under the age of...."....
Rescues as we all know come with a different set of baggage then a puppy... and many times because of the situation they were in there are circumstances that the best of fosters will never be able to work through... And I don't know what breeders you are referring to that have 20/30 Basenjis .. None that I know of, at least not responsible breeders. Just because you may have been involved with a less than responsible breeder, don't lump all the rest into that catagory

[DebraDownSouth]

Clearly, you have a beef with breeders and I think I did get your point perfectly. I have no beef with breeders. I have beefs with breeders bashing rescue. Surely you are able to see the difference, no?


You said that rescue volunteers are better able to socialize and evaluate dogs because they have fewer dogs. ..blah blah blah.. 10 dogs that does mean they don't do a great job at providing their puppies with critical socialization ..blah blah...lack of good socialization during critical development periods can never really be fully substituted. Thirdly, I know many rescue volunteers with more dogs in their home than some responsible breeders. I was responding to someone indicating BREEDERS only able to do a good job. Let the 10 dogs go, really, it wasn't the point. Make it 6 compared to 2 if you really need numbers. The POINT, the ONLY POINT, was that a rescue sure as heck can do as good of a job. Period. As for early socialization, having seen so many rescues of many breeds who came up with horrific situations, I say.. again.. not really. Some dogs have bad temperaments that the early issues cannot be overcome. Most dogs, given proper socialization even as adults, do fine. Thank goodness. As for rescuers with many dogs, just like breeders with many, they are not the norm.


I do think that you implied that temperament issues were a non-issue in rescues...more smoke throwing to avoid what was really said and address that....I think it is wrong to imply that rescue organizations are somehow going to make those non-issues simply through the fostering and evaluating process. If you got that, I already tried once to explain. Since you ignored my clear explanation, no sense in saying again what you want to continue insisting that wasn't meant. What you are insisting is insultingly stupid and never said.


I think rescues are a great option for some people but they come with huge question marks that make then a less suitable option for some households and no matter what you say, And I say, prove to me the health stats on well bred versus byb. Please. And I also say 90 percent of people looking for puppies don't know a responsible from byb, so again... it's usually a pig in a poke for most. But even when they do... again, you can certainly decrease genetic issues, but that's about it. And again, a TEMPERAMENT TESTED socialized rescue is as safe as any responsible breeder dog for a pet.

And I am sorry for all the responsible breeders who support rescue. Honest, I love you people. I don't lump you with the rescue bashers any more than I lump responsible breeders with puppymills or byb. My only issue is bashing rescue.

[DebraDownSouth]

Not sure who you think here is "bashing" rescue? We are just pointing out that a rescue is not the best choice for all people. And even if you look at BRAT, how many of those dogs say "no children under the age of....".... don't lump all the rest into that catagory I started to go all debraly and quote you where i already answered the above... but why bother.

I understand... some breeders don't have homes lined up, get back adults and can't place them, and see rescue as a competition. Snarky enough comment for you?

Because the continued twisting of what I said, or saying the same thing again I responded to already convinces me that some folks will continue to twist and ignore so why bother.

And now, really done. I just hope people thinking of rescue consider the source of the nay-sayers, do their homework, consider the bazillion rescues who have made superb pets, and realize it is usually a great choice and almost always at LEAST as good of a choice as a breeder's puppy unless they want to show and breed.

[tanza]

I understand... some breeders don't have homes lined up, get back adults and can't place them, and see rescue as a competition. Snarky enough comment for you?

And I would not consider the above breeder, responsible. I do not know of any breeder that considers rescue as "competition"

[lvoss]

I have no beef with breeders. I have beefs with breeders bashing rescue. Surely you are able to see the difference, no?

Actually, you took one statement about rescues being at higher risk of health issues than dogs with well tested and carefully bred parents to be rescue bashing and then turned this thread into your chance to breeder bash. I think that demonstrates an issue with breeders.


I was responding to someone indicating BREEDERS only able to do a good job. Let the 10 dogs go, really, it wasn't the point. Make it 6 compared to 2 if you really need numbers. The POINT, the ONLY POINT, was that a rescue sure as heck can do as good of a job. Period. As for early socialization, having seen so many rescues of many breeds who came up with horrific situations, I say.. again.. not really. Some dogs have bad temperaments that the early issues cannot be overcome. Most dogs, given proper socialization even as adults, do fine. Thank goodness. As for rescuers with many dogs, just like breeders with many, they are not the norm.

I know a lot more rescuers with 6 dogs than 2 so the point of they have less is still FALSE. You wanted to make rescuers look better than breeders but you exaggerated breeder numbers and down played rescuers numbers to do it.


If you got that, I already tried once to explain. Since you ignored my clear explanation, no sense in saying again what you want to continue insisting that wasn't meant. What you are insisting is insultingly stupid and never said.

Here is exactly what you said


There are situations where a puppy IS important. But it isn't for temperament or behavior.

I still believe that temperament and behavior are the primary concerns when adding a new dog and they are the primary reason most families opt for a puppy over a rescue because rescue dogs do not have the socialization to the hectic daily routines of most families. It has been pointed out time and again that far more adult dogs list "not good with children" then list "good with children" so absolutely TEMPERAMENT and BEHAVIOR are important in choosing a puppy over rescue.


And I say, prove to me the health stats on well bred versus byb.

It is really hard to prove with health stats seeing as BYBs won't spend the money to test or submit the data. What we do see is the data from the owners of those dogs and only significantly for Fanconi where it is required that the information be published in order to have the test.

[dcmclcm4]

The majority of my rescues have never been around children since they have lived in crates 24/7. Since I do not have children, they are not exposed to children in a household. They might meet children at events, etc. but that is not the same as living with children who might pull their tail, carry food around at their height, etc.

Jennifer

[khanis]

I understand... some breeders don't have homes lined up, get back adults and can't place them, and see rescue as a competition. Snarky enough comment for you?

And now, really done. I just hope people thinking of rescue consider the source of the nay-sayers, do their homework, consider the bazillion rescues who have made superb pets, and realize it is usually a great choice and almost always at LEAST as good of a choice as a breeder's puppy unless they want to show and breed.


WOW! With what you made this thread out to be, perhaps a TT is in order.
NO good breeder views rescue as competition.

MY dogs, as most well-bred dogs, have temperaments beyond comparison to any rescue. Sure, some rescues are one in a million... but that isn't the norm.
FEW RESCUE DOGS, IF ANY, CAN BE CONSIDERED BOMB PROOF.
I do not care who has evaluated it, spent time with it, and TT it.
The vast majority of dogs in rescue to not have a history that rescue knows 100% about.
The vast majority of people that turn dogs into rescue tell the truth. They are ready to be done with the dog, and if it takes making up crap to shove the dog off on others, it is done.
Don't even waste your breath to try and refute this... I have seen it way too much.

And a rescue is almost always as good of a choice as a well-bred puppy?
You obviously believe this to be true... but it is merely an unsubstantiated opinion that all I can really do is laugh at someone that believes it.

I do rescue, so don't think I am a rescue-basher... but as a responsible breeder, I feel it is my position to help clean up the messes of others. If I don't do it, more dogs fall into the wrong hands.

In fact, I have been in contact with the OHS and they have contacted the new owner of the 11yo R/W Basenji girl that was recently posted on the Oregon HS website. The dog is doing well and I am awaiting the info on the breeder. They have followed up with me with 4 phone calls... do I need to worry about someone else's dog? No, not really. But, if it were mine, I would hope that another responsible breeder would do the same.

[sharronhurlbut]

Kathy, re this dog in the OHS. I have tried to get her out and into BRAT.
The shetler will not release her to us. They want to place her. As its a no kill shelter, that's better than some.
This is just fyi.

[DebraDownSouth]

Not sure who you think here is "bashing" rescue? We are just pointing out that a rescue is not the best choice for all people. And even if you look at BRAT, how many of those dogs say "no children under the age of...."....
Rescues as we all know come with a different set of baggage then a puppy... and many times because of the situation they were in there are circumstances that the best of fosters will never be able to work through...
Not bashing rescue dogs? Really, what thread were you on? Review below.


Actually, you took one statement about rescues being at higher risk of health issues than dogs with well tested and carefully bred parents to be rescue bashing and then turned this thread into your chance to breeder bash. I think that demonstrates an issue with breeders.

I still believe that temperament and behavior are the primary concerns when adding a new dog and they are the primary reason most families opt for a puppy over a rescue because rescue dogs do not have the socialization to the hectic daily routines of most families. It has been pointed out time and again that far more adult dogs list "not good with children" then list "good with children" so absolutely TEMPERAMENT and BEHAVIOR are important in choosing a puppy over rescue.

And continuing to say my issue is BREEDERS is dishonest. No beef with responsible breeders. My only complaint is anyone, breeder or not, bashing rescues. Although I DO have a new beef, it is twisting my words and continuing to repeat something I clarified... such as that temperament doesn't matter. OF COURSE IT DOES. But a temperament tested, fostered, socialized dog who has been deemed good with kids IS just as safe as your puppies. AND, once again (typing slow so maybe you all stop repeating it over and over).. I didn't CLAIM ALL RESCUES GOOD WITH CHILDREN. For crying out loud, how many times do I have to say it.


And there are benefits from the health perspective to temperment of the dog that you know about.


The initial adoption fee for a rescue may be a little bit less than a responsibly bred dog but the risk for health issues may prove higher, and far more expensive, in the long run.

Okay so rescues AND homes without children living in them can't prepare a dog to live with kids:

For others, it just will NOT work.
I have kids, so I know that is imperative to many families getting a pup... my pups are kid-proofed more than any puppy could possibly be that does NOT have children living under the roof. If they hit 8 wks in my house.. they are literally bomb-proof to all noises and kinds of people. You don't generally find that in rescue.

Actually most rescues ARE fine, or they don't make it into rescue... unstable dogs should always be put down. Nor is the modern family an issue. Unruly abusive children would be, they would be for ANY dog.

It can be very difficult for families to find adult dogs that have been well socialized to the chaos of the modern family and of the temperament to take it all in stride. That doesn't mean that there are not adult dogs that will fit the bill but they are definately not the most commonly seen in the surrendered dog population.


Just a few things, there are quite a few rescues that clearly state, on almost all of their adoptions, 'better off in a home with children over 12, etc'. So what is that saying? Obviously, a lot of these dogs are felt to be not good with children-and that is put out by your evaluators/fosters. So how can it be said that rescues are well socialized with children and are able to be placed with children? I'm not saying all rescues dogs are like this, but a reality is most are because most of these dogs have little socialization with adults, never mind children.

Most of the rescues that are dealt with do come with issues irregardless of what you say. Whether they are mental or physical. It is a crap shoot in the long run with any dog. I agree with that as to the physical well being, no one, NO ONE, can determine long term what can happen to anyone or anything physically or mentally.


Secondly, no matter how stellar a rescue volunteer is at training and rehabilitating, lack of good socialization during critical development periods can never really be fully substituted.

I think rescues are a great option for some people but they come with huge question marks that make then a less suitable option for some households and no matter what you say, HEALTH and TEMPERAMENT are some of those huge question marks.

[DebraDownSouth]

MY dogs, as most well-bred dogs, have temperaments beyond comparison to any rescue. Sure, some rescues are one in a million... but that isn't the norm.
Actually, it really is. Most dogs in rescues and shelters are there due to stupid or irresponsible owners, not temperament. Lets get real okay? Responsible breeders make up .. I forget the AKC stats... quite a bit less than 20 percent show their dogs in any venue, never mind percent who do their breed's recommended genetic and health testing. That's only akc. Yet most dogs are perfectly fine temperaments. Exceptions? Sure, guardian breed dogs and others. But generally, nope. Which is why there aren't hundreds of people dead every year from those poorly breed insane dogs you imagine are out there. MOST dogs have fine temperaments... maybe not for every home, but certainly okay. Most dog issues are not the dog's temperament but the owner's issues.


FEW RESCUE DOGS, IF ANY, CAN BE CONSIDERED BOMB PROOF.
I do not care who has evaluated it, spent time with it, and TT it.
The vast majority of dogs in rescue to not have a history that rescue knows 100% about. Heads up. Unlike a human sitting in psychoanalysis, you don't need much history. Live with a dog for 3 to 6 mos and if you aren't able to evaluate the temperament and bomb proof it as much as any other dog, you need some help. Doesn't mean every dog for every home, but then, neither are Basenjis right for even MOST homes.



The vast majority of people that turn dogs into rescue tell the truth. They are ready to be done with the dog, and if it takes making up crap to shove the dog off on others, it is done.
Don't even waste your breath to try and refute this... I have seen it way too much. I think you meant DON'T tell the truth. And we agree. Again, so what? You spend time with the dog, you'll get all the info you need.


And a rescue is almost always as good of a choice as a well-bred puppy?
You obviously believe this to be true... but it is merely an unsubstantiated opinion that all I can really do is laugh at someone that believes it. Typing slow again. Puppies are hard for most people to raise right. If they have the ability to raise a puppy right, they could also live with a rescue. So yeah, it's laughable you want to argue a rescue won't do just as well unless they want to show or breed. Genetic diseases aside... which I grant and have said.

[DebraDownSouth]

The majority of my rescues have never been around children since they have lived in crates 24/7. Since I do not have children, they are not exposed to children in a household. They might meet children at events, etc. but that is not the same as living with children who might pull their tail, carry food around at their height, etc.

Jennifer Then you would be wise to never place in homes with children... or do you mean dogs you have adopted? Not sure if you mean you rescue to place or your own adopted dogs. If you rescue to place, here is a thought.. should anyone do rescue if they are not able to find kids to expose them TO? Because most homes have kids visit... family, neighbors, whatever. I consider exposing to children to be critical. It really is important to know how a dog is. What if one of those rescues has issues with children and is a danger?

[khanis]

Debra,

Do you have any idea how much rescue Jennifer does for the Basenji breed??
I gather you don't by the rude comments you are making.
Jennifer is an ANGEL and does more than many folks combined when it comes to rescue. Bless her for being there for so many of these dogs.

THIS THREAD NEEDS TO BE CLOSED.
You are a rude individual to folks that you do not know in any way.
We can all suffice to say that you would argue til the cows came home...
the fact is, you are bashing those of us on here that are good breeders AND we do rescue.
Get past yourself and realize you are preaching to the wrong choir.

[lvoss]

I agree this topic needs to be closed.

[sinbaje]

Well before we close it can I pipe in? Thanks.

Of course rescue dogs are in competition with reputable breeders for finding good homes, and vice versa. As are BYB and puppymills. What differentiates us from each other is our intent. Personally I find very little fault in what Debra has had to say. Breeders do perpetuate the myth their dogs are better than rescue dogs to some degree, and again - vice versa. We are all biased about what we are doing and we all think we have the best thing going. I admit it - I think what I do rocks and is better than many if not all others which is why I continue to do as I do! But - I am always open to improvement.

I am not concerned so much by the number of adults a breeder has. Well socialized adults have very little need for excessive training, just brief periods of refresher courses throughout the week is enough to keep them in tip top temperament shape. What concerns me is multiple litters that a number of "reputable" breeders (and I say that word lightly) have on the ground at any one time. I know the time and effort and commitment that goes into properly socializing and exposing puppies - which means getting them out of the house, as a group and individually numerous times. With multiple litters - something has to give and it will usually be the early socializing/exposure excursions 'cuz they just don't have the time. My recent litter of 4 pups took a tremendous amount of my time and I still did not do all that I had wanted.

That said - nothing is full proof. I have seen dogs with the best start in life be ruined by owners to become schitzo adults. I have also seen pound pups, with the worst start in life, step up and make the grade. As for children - I personally do not feel this breed is good with children in the traditional sense. Not because there is anything wrong with the breed's temperament - its more due to the fact that many kids I see today are spoiled rotten, have no boundaries with very little respect or regard for anything. Sure - a total generalization but its my reality. IMO, our breed does not do well with any human (child or adult) that does not have a sense of respect for it and act accordingly. Does not mean my guys are not well bred or well socialized.

And speaking as a person who sees multiple rescues of every shape and size, every day at work where most of our patient base are petstore rejects or pound pups - I agree it is stupid people that create stupid, schitzo dogs - it is the rare individual animal that has a true genetic temperament template which can not be eradicated in the right enviro and a lot of dedication.

As for health. Excluding fanconi - as that is a recent test therefore I would expect well bred dogs to be over represented in testings - having test results does not guarantee breeders anything. Yes, testing does help breeders to determine odds of a health problem cropping up but it does not exclude breeders from having said problems or other problems not on the breeds radar screen. I know breeders with Idiopathic immune disorders on this list - myself included - that no amount of health testing would have alerted us to. Heck - health testing has only really become a mainstay within the breed in the last 10-15 years. It was the norm NOT to test. Which means most well bred dogs were NO better than the unknown rescues with regards to knowledge - in other words - it was all a crap shoot. Add to that breeders unwilling to talk about or even acknowledge they had any problems and you have no more info than if you took home a dog picked up off the street - except what the breeder may or may not tell you. Has it gotten better - heck yes. But we still have breeders with their head in the sand, to the point they still will not test for fanconi!

The crux of the problem, IMO, is something Pat mentions - not every person wants a rescue. There is something alluring about a puppy; it's a clean slate, has little to no baggage, is believed (wrongly of course) to be "easier" to take care of. So in that regard Pat is right - rescue is not for everyone. When folks come to me re: a basenji puppy and I do not have pups on the ground or a litter planned I will always remind them of rescue dogs as well as give them names of other breeders who might have litters or older dogs needing placement and leave the choice to them. But if I have available pups on the ground or a litter planned and they are asking for a pup, I admit I am not thinking about sending them to rescue. I am thinking about vetting them to see if they would be a good prospect for one of my pups. If they are, I admit I will keep them for myself if I can. By no means am I bashing rescue - to be honest - rescue probably has not even come up in the conversation.

As an aside - this reader did not take Debra's post to Jennifer as a criticsm - especially since she has implied she is not 100% certain she understands what Jennifer means by rescue (dogs she plans to place or dogs she herself has rescued/adopted). Her question re: whether or not someone should do rescue (for eventual placement) if they have no plans to somehow expose said rescue to children is a valid question. I personally never thought of it but can see how it could be an important point in a future potential placement.

Now then - feel free to close the subject since this reader feels ya'll are so set to "right fight" you lost the bigger picture about 2 pages ago. That being - in the end it is all about the dogs and giving them the best start, or second start possible, and getting them into one home for the rest of their lives.
________
DISABILITY INSURANCE FORUM (http://www.insurance-forums.org/disability-insurance/)

[sharronhurlbut]

Linda, well said.
I always try to keep my eye on what is best for the b.
It makes things a lot clearer when I think that way.

[debbi j.]

[QUOTE=khanis;120329]WOW!

MY dogs, as most well-bred dogs, have temperaments beyond comparison to any rescue. Sure, some rescues are one in a million... but that isn't the norm.
FEW RESCUE DOGS, IF ANY, CAN BE CONSIDERED BOMB PROOF.
I do not care who has evaluated it, spent time with it, and TT it.
The vast majority of dogs in rescue to not have a history that rescue knows 100% about.
The vast majority of people that turn dogs into rescue tell the truth. They are ready to be done with the dog, and if it takes making up crap to shove the dog off on others, it is done.
Don't even waste your breath to try and refute this... I have seen it way too much.



My reply:

I apparently haven't figured out how to do quotes yet, sorry.

I'm not going to waste much breath refuting your opinion of a rescue basenji, but I could offer you hundreds of testimonies from satisfied adopters who have become the forever homes for the dog of their dreams.

Apart from that, can we just put this issue to bed?

Debbi J.
who lives and breathes rescue

[DebraDownSouth]

I gather you don't by the rude comments you are making.

You are a rude individual to folks that you do not know in any way.

the fact is, you are bashing those of us on here that are good breeders AND we do rescue.
Get past yourself and realize you are preaching to the wrong choir.

1. About as RUDE as the comments to me. Put on your big girl panties... when you twist what I say, continue to twist, refuse to accept explanations, then don't expect happy responses.

2. I was not rude to her at all. Please quote what was rude. I suggested that all rescuers, ALL, should socialize dogs with children or at minimum seriously evaluate with them. I believe that completely. That isn't rude or insulting anyone.

3. Please quote me where I bashed BREEDERS. I bashed comments about temperaments and general health. Period.

4. Get over yourself? What are you, 10?

And for the record, I am and SAID before... I am (or was) a breeder... Rottweilers. Pretty silly to accuse me of being anti-breeder. But please, show me where I bash responsible breeders. I'll apologize.

[nomrbddgs]

Wow! You asked where you bashed breeders? Where did anyone bash rescuers either? Show me. And I think I did say something about the rescuers putting something in about dogs that have a byline - no children under 12- again, I was ignored and you talk about others putting words into your mouth. Maybe you should re-read your replies to the people. I didn't say ALL. I said the majority of them. And the evaluators are not perfect either, no one is.

Not one person here bashed rescuers-only in your head. All breeders know that without rescuers, it would be a happier world. But, you talk about having to deal with people that come to you from responsible breeders, do you ask them if they've gone to the breeder first? Or do you just take it at face value? Do you research if they have actually gone to the breeder? Do you call the breeder to find out if they will take the dog back? Or do you just say "screw it" and put the dog in a foster home without letting the breeder know?

You are a piece of work lady! Talk about saying to others 'What are you 10?' Look in the mirror honey. BACK AT YOU. I'm done with you. Don't talk or message me. You are a narrow minded individual who has an issue that you won't let go. Breeders. I don't care that you say you don't have an issue and that you were a Rotti breeder. By the very way you have talked to the people on this forum-YOU DO.

Rescuers are mostly great people. I wouldn't want to deal with you and I certainly wouldn't want one of my dogs falling into your hands. Because, you probably wouldn't let me know about it and then I would fall into your 'irresponsible' breeder category. Mistakes happen-how about you get over yourself and leave the breeders on here alone. You have taken one small issue and made it your personal vendetta.

[Quercus]

Sorry, again an additional 700 to BUY the dog on top of the care IS a lot for most people. Period.

Nor did anyone bash breeders or getting from breeders. It was breeders bashing rescue dogs or inferring (or out and out claiming) not healthy or risky temperament. From breeders who if they know ANYTHING know that temperament testing is as valid on a rescue as their own pups (well unless they suck at temperament testing)...and is VERY reliable on older pups and adults. Now I am done on this topic. I left here crying yesterday because I couldn't believe people I thought were knowledgeable and cared about the breed were pushing breeder dogs and putting down rescues. So I have my big girl panties on and my rose colored glasses removed. 'nuff said.

Give me a break. No one was bashing rescue! It is a fact that responsible breeders are using the Fanconi marker test to AVOID breeding dogs with Fanconi. It is a fact that BRAT is not using the marker test prior to placing dogs (for GOOD reasons)...so therefore you DO stand a risk of adopting a dog that will have Fanconi by not purchasing from a responsible breeder. And dogs that have been placed into rescue often have developed bad habits because their prior owners have not invested enough time and/or learning into training their dogs before giving them up to rescue....nothing to do with temperament...but a lot to do with the mindset of the original owner. That doesn't mean there aren't perfect homes available for these dogs...but they won't be perfect for everyone. There is a place for responsibly bred puppies, and rescue dogs...but we won't do anybody any good if people try to create a wall where there isn't one.

[DebraDownSouth]

I already quoted the bashing.

And Arlene, I am sorry you are unable to discuss a TOPIC without making personal attacks. Since I have never talked to or messaged you, I don't think you have to worry. When people become abusive as your post was, it says all I need to know about them.

Nor did I say (there you go inventing) that RESCUERS were attacked, I said rescue dogs. And yes, I repeatedly addressed the no kids topic. You may want to reread.

But I doubt anyone actually READING this thread is side-tracked by your rant. The continued accusations that I attacked or have issues with RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS doesn't hold, so instead of admitting you can find nothing to quote other than my bash of BASHING RESCUES, you launch a personal attack. Tut tut.

[DebraDownSouth]

Give me a break. No one was bashing rescue!
There is a place for responsibly bred puppies, and rescue dogs...but we won't do anybody any good if people try to create a wall where there isn't one. Andrea, I quoted the comments, so please don't tell me that people were not putting down getting rescues. For the rest, I agree... and in fact said, repeatedly, responsibly bred dogs do have genetic testing behind them. For people to keep saying that rescue wasn't being bashed when the quotes are there makes no sense. Nor is this breeders verses rescuERS, it is about people who bash rescue dogs.

I am not trying to create a wall, but I won't let stand unanswered assertions that rescues are generally more unhealthy than breeder dogs nor that the temperament of rescues is worse than breeder dogs nor that there aren't plenty of good rescues for families with children. Note, NOT ALL RESCUES (or breeder's dogs) are good for children. Please don't twist my words to say that. And please don't continue to make this as Debra-hates-breeders. That is hogwash. I love responsible breeders as much as I hate puppy mills and irresponsible breeders. I KNOW the work and love and sweat that goes into being a good breeder. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BREEDERS. It has to do with breeders or ANYONE who puts down rescues.

And when I get snippy in response to the continued twisting of my words, I apologize anywhere it even SOUNDS like I might mean breeders. But again, I am asking before you slam me again... quote me where I bashed BREEDERS. Otherwise, well, we all know what it means.

[DebraDownSouth]

I don't know about all areas of the country but at least in this area, the responsible breeders don't have 10, 20, 30 dogs, they have maybe 5-6 dogs and they are house dogs and well socialized,

For the record, ...
http://www.khanisbasenjis.com/ourdogs.htm
8 dogs listed as in residence... 3 litters due this fall. Means could easily be 20 if ave 4 a litter... counting pups.

So while I am sure MOST have 5 or 6, not all do. I just wanted to point out that while 30 was over the top, it wasn't massively over the top.

But the whole comment was about socialization, etc. And I should have left numbers out and just said socialization with a few dogs can be done incredibly well in a rescue with more time available in 24 hours per animal than someone juggling adults and an entire litter, or 2, or 3.

[nomrbddgs]

<<I doubt many responsible breeders can begin to place a pup for much under $2,000. Certainly not under $1,000.>>

This was the start of it certainly. Just because you believe we, as responsible breeders on this forum, do or don't charge that amount, your inference was that we were irresponsible. How many times on this forum have we said we lose money? It isn't about the money for a lot of us, but about the breed.

<<I have heard rescuers say that breeders bash rescues... I honestly have to say while I have heard it out the yingyang with both Chow and Rottie breeders, this is my first experience with it among Basenji.>>

So if you aren't saying we are bashing the rescues as responsible breeders, and you aren't talking to anyone off the forum, you are posting here, again your inference is back to the breeders on this forum.

<<It was breeders bashing rescue dogs or inferring (or out and out claiming) not healthy or risky temperament. From breeders who if they know ANYTHING know that temperament testing is as valid on a rescue as their own pups (well unless they suck at temperament testing)...and is VERY reliable on older pups and adults.>>

And you're saying you're not bashing the breeders on this forum??? Sorry, when you bash one you bash us all-at least that's the way I feel.

<<And you know what, most of those have only a few dogs in their house so they can closely evaluate and spend time... unlike breeders with 10, 20 or 30 dogs. And they place depending on the dog and the family.>>

And again, your words. You are the one who generalized against all the breeders. If you didn't want a generalization you should have been more specific. What? And we don't place depending on the dog and family as well?

<<And someone who can only bond with a pup doesn't need a dog at all.>>

And that wasn't a nasty thing to say? How do you know someone's personal lifestyle to make that statement?

<<But it sounds like you think bomb-proofing requires kids under the roof... so I guess you think people with children should ONLY get pups from someone like you. OOOPS Robyn et al... you are now relegated to those awful rescues that also are not as good as those with children.>>

That was also not playing nice. And you're calling the rest of us rude? What are you trying to do? Play one against the other?

<<The truth is, exposing a puppy to many many many situations, whether kids live IN your home or not, prepares and bomb-proofs. And you know that... or should. And the next truth is that no matter what YOU do, you place a puppy in an idiot's home where a child hurts the dog, your bombproofing for kids goes down the drain. You place a pup who has limited or even NO experience with children ... but otherwise "bomb proofed"... into a home with parents who supervise and get correct behavior from their kids, the pup is going to be perfectly fine.>>

Again, are you so perfect this has never happened to you? Kids are kids and dogs are dogs and it can happen to anyone. If you trust a dog, IMO, comletely, you are an idiot. Period. A dog is still a wild animal and behaves accordingly.

<<Stop bashing rescues for health or temperament. >>

I still don't see where anyone bashed rescues! Why do you insist on bringing this up time and again?

<<I have no beef with breeders. I have beefs with breeders bashing rescue. Surely you are able to see the difference, no?>>

Again, you can't see outside your little box that no one here bashed rescues or rescue dogs. You are the one that keeps bringing it up.

<<And I say, prove to me the health stats on well bred versus byb.>>

Check out some of the people that didn't get a dog that was responsibly bred. You'll begin to see the differences.

<< I don't lump you with the rescue bashers any more than I lump responsible breeders with puppymills or byb. My only issue is bashing rescue>>

<<Nor did I say (there you go inventing) that RESCUERS were attacked, I said rescue dogs.>>

So what is it?? Rescuers, rescues, or rescue dogs.

<<The continued accusations that I attacked or have issues with RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS doesn't hold, so instead of admitting you can find nothing to quote other than my bash of BASHING RESCUES,>>

You're right, you don't have issues with responsible breeders, just all breeders! And I thought you didn't bash anything?

I will repeat and repeat and repeat. You are calling the people on here rude, you attack people personally, who are my friends, and then you try to state that I shouldn't say anything. Sorry, not in my field. Leave the people on here alone. Go back to your little narrow world where you are the best and only perfect soul in existence and you cannot see outside of it. I really don't like your outlook at all. I pity you living in your perfect world. You are not a saint either.

NUFF SAID.

[lvoss]

Arlene, the poster will just say you can't read because obviously when we say that health of rescue is a question mark that is rescue bashing even though it is true. As Andrea very accurately summarized, responsible breeders do Fanconi testing before a breeding, they make sure their puppies Fanconi status is known prior to placement. BRAT does NOT do Fanconi marker testing because it will negatively impact the rescue's likelihood of being adopted so for at least that one health issue when you adopt a rescue that will be a question mark.

If we say temperament can be a question mark that is also bashing. Having spent many hours at my shelter working with temperament tested dogs, I can say that we still run into surprises. A temperament test cannot test for every situation. It tests for the ones that are most likely going to be triggers but you can still run into surprises when you are actually working with a dog or when an adopter brings the dog home. And Andrea made a good point, it isn't always temperament but behavior. We see lots of adolescent dogs that have been reinforced for lots of bad behaviors like jumping up, nipping, etc. Those are bad behaviors but often they are combined with energetic, playful temperaments that make those behaviors highly likely.

[nomrbddgs]

Very True Lisa. But I am done with her. Nasty. Too bad.

[DebraDownSouth]

[QUOTE=nomrbddgs;120465]<<I doubt many responsible breeders can begin to place a pup for much under $2,000. Certainly not under $1,000.>>

This was the start of it certainly. Just because you believe we, as responsible breeders on this forum, do or don't charge that amount, your inference was that we were irresponsible. <<<

That wasn't the start, it wasn't. And the cost of a breeder pup wasn't the topic about bashing. Please quit trying to make it so. But you actually TWISTED my intent, which was that I didn't see how a breeder can begin to sell for less BECAUSE I know the expenses incurred. I wasn't saying make a profit, I was thinking prevent financial ruin. So the ASSUmption I meant it about profit... sorry, not from me.

<<And you know what, most of those have only a few dogs in their house so they can closely evaluate and spend time... unlike breeders with 10, 20 or 30 dogs. And they place depending on the dog and the family.>>

And again, your words. You are the one who generalized against all the breeders. If you didn't want a generalization you should have been more specific. What? And we don't place depending on the dog and family as well? <<<<

Since I addressed this several times, not going to again, but no it was NOT generalizing about all breeders, it was comparing the ability to socialize... which was put down about rescues... saying... oh wait. I explained it already so wasting breath.

<<The truth is, exposing a puppy to many many many situations, ...>>

Again, are you so perfect this has never happened to you? Kids are kids and dogs are dogs and it can happen to anyone. If you trust a dog, IMO, comletely, you are an idiot. Period. A dog is still a wild animal and behaves accordingly.

Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow... no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.


So what is it?? Rescuers, rescues, or rescue dogs.

Rescue dogs, but since that was the discussion each and every post except when someone said I said people were bashing rescuERS.

You're right, you don't have issues with responsible breeders, just all breeders! And I thought you didn't bash anything?

OMG, insane, that comment really is.

Not even going through the rest because you said you were done, yet continue with personal attacks and in next post call me nasty. I have not personally attacked anyone, you have. Look in the mirror for rude, nasty etc. Check into anger management even. And no, dear, you can't order me off here. You can't order me to not respond to you ...heck you obviously couldn't even order yourself to stop cause you keep on. You attack me, I'll respond. Perhaps bullying and name calling and personal attacks works for you elsewhere, but you rather picked the wrong person. I can respect debating a topic even when disagreeing, but when someone makes the clearly harassing attacking posts you do, their comments deserve no respect. But perhaps you need the last word so I'll give it to you, done.

I do want to state one last time.. nothing I wrote was ever intended as responsible breeder bash, but defense of rescue. That it has been beaten to death has long since passed any level of productive discussion. For my part, done. But I hope most breeders realize the accusations that I am against breeders is nonsense. Responsible breeders are the light against the dark in all breeds, not just this one, and the only ones who should ever produce a puppy.

[tanza]

Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow... no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.


I totally disagree with this comment.... And I know many a Basenji that was in the wrong home and the damage was never able to be "undone"

[DebraDownSouth]

Pat, I apologize you misunderstood. I guess because I said it so many times and it was PERFECTLY clear in what I wrote before that she quoted:


And the next truth is that no matter what YOU do, you place a puppy in an idiot's home where a child hurts the dog, your bombproofing for kids goes down the drain.

I didn't explain fully this one. I meant no matter what you do, it you put a dog in the wrong home, whatever good YOU DID can be undone.

[debbi j.]

BRAT does NOT do Fanconi marker testing because it will negatively impact the rescue's likelihood of being adopted so for at least that one health issue when you adopt a rescue that will be a question mark.


For the record, BRAT does not do Fanconi marker testing because we can not afford it. If we tested each basenji that came into rescue each year, it would cost over $30,000 per year. Our adoption fees do not begin to cover our direct vetting expenses as it is. This is the primary reason BRAT does not test. In addition, the test is not 100% accurate.

debbi j.

[lvoss]

That is not what has been said in the past. Cost is one factor but the negative impact on the adoptability has always been listed as a major factor.

[debbi j.]

That is not what has been said in the past. Cost is one factor but the negative impact on the adoptability has always been listed as a major factor.

Who is your source that the negative impact on the adoptibility is the major factor? I am one of the five members of the Board and one of the three members of the Executive Committee. The primary reason is the cost factor.

debbi j.

[tanza]

For the record, BRAT does not do Fanconi marker testing because we can not afford it. If we tested each basenji that came into rescue each year, it would cost over $30,000 per year. Our adoption fees do not begin to cover our direct vetting expenses as it is. This is the primary reason BRAT does not test. In addition, the test is not 100% accurate.

debbi j.

The test is very true to form... there have been no Clears that have started to spill as of yet... that I know of and there are over 3500 Basenjis in the data base. I would hope that no one uses the excuse as a reason not to test.

And I have heard the same as Lisa as the main reason that BRAT doesn't test... also there have been suggestions made that when someone wants/needs to give up their Basenji that they are requested to make the 65.00 donation so the dog can be tested... not all are strays or from shelters. While maybe many would not, can't hurt to ask... and you might be surprised.

This is NOT a BRAT bash... just that I really think that these dogs should be tested before placement and the potential owners aware of what might come.

[debbi j.]

And I have heard the same as Lisa as the main reason that BRAT doesn't test...

This is NOT a BRAT bash... just that I really think that these dogs should be tested before placement and the potential owners aware of what might come.

I don't see this as BRAT bashing. I am involved in the making of BRAT policy, and I know that is not the main reason. You may have heard this from individual BRAT members, but the opinion of individual members does not stand for the organization.

debbi j.

[tanza]

I don't see this as BRAT bashing. I am involved in the making of BRAT policy, and I know that is not the main reason. You may have heard this from individual BRAT members, but the opinion of individual members does not stand for the organization.

debbi j.

I still think that on Basenjis being given up from the owners direct if you asked for a donation of 65.00 for the test, then it is not a cash outlay from BRAT. As they say, if you don't ask....

[debbi j.]

I still think that on Basenjis being given up from the owners direct if you asked for a donation of 65.00 for the test, then it is not a cash outlay from BRAT. As they say, if you don't ask....

Unfortunately, most owners giving up a basenji will not even bring their dog up to date on shots, much less donate $65.00 for the test. We generally ask for a donation to help defray costs, but it seldom happens. So far this year, we have received seven donations when an owner surrendered their basenji to BRAT. In a more perfect world, things might be different.

[westcoastflea1]

even though im new on this forum and pretty much uninformed, (and im sure ill be told so by at least one person) i do want to say several things

something was posted in this thread about most brat dogs being listed as not good with children under 12 as though this was an indicator of the instability of rescue dogs vs reputable breeders dogs.
sebastian my foster will be listed as needing to go to a home with children over 12. i requested that, not because i think hes a danger but because i feel he needs a home where his space and person will be respected by everyone in the household, which is as it should be for any dog, breeder pup OR rescue. sebastian is good with anyone who respects his space and person whether they are 2 years old or 80 years old human or canine, but if they dont then he will let them know, which could result in his being without a home once more, so why take the chance?
dogs are not responsible for teaching children or adults appropriate behavior.
personally i think that you are setting ANY dog up to fail if you place them in a home with children who are either too young to understand the concept of respecting the family dogs space and person or in a home with children whose parents fail to teach the children that the family dog deserves as much respect as any other member of the household.

there was an email from brat recently about a dog who needed a home asap because the 9 year old in the home was tormenting the dog.
i think brat is wise in posting most dogs as needing homes with kids over 12 years of age, there may be very good reasons why some of the dogs are posted that way.
but in general it just makes sense to take one of the major reasons dogs are taken to shelters or rescues out of the equation when posting a dog for adoption who has already been abandoned once.

second
i have just started fostering with brat and i have to say that im amazed at the amount of money they spend on these dogs
sebastian has in just the past few weeks had over 400.00 spent on tests, medications, xrays etc.

telling an owner that they Have to pay 65.00 for testing of their dog would im sure cause many of the relinquishing owners to simply take their dog to the pound, list it on craigslist as a "free dog" or just abandon it.

would testing for fanconi be good? of course and maybe one of these days brat will financially see their way clear to do so, but until then lets just applaud them for the work they do and have faith that if there is any way possible to test every dog they will figure out a way to do so. :)

[sharronhurlbut]

Westcoast..well said. BRAT does vet the dogs they have in their care.
We are very lucky to have BRAT help b's in need.

[Quercus]

What if the adopting party offered to pay for the test before they committed to taking the dog?

[sharronhurlbut]

Amdrea. Are you talking about the adopters for BRAT saying they would get the test, before they get the dog? *I am not clear what your asking*

[lvoss]

i think brat is wise in posting most dogs as needing homes with kids over 12 years of age, there may be very good reasons why some of the dogs are posted that way.

No one was disagreeing with the fact that some dogs belong in homes without young children. But that doesn't mean that every family with children under the age of 12 should just not have a dog. This is where a responsible breeder may be able to better provide a suitable match since so many rescues are considered not good with young children. This isn't saying that because a dog isn't good with young children that it is a lesser dog but it does mean that a responsible breeder may be a better option for those families.

[Quercus]

Amdrea. Are you talking about the adopters for BRAT saying they would get the test, before they get the dog? *I am not clear what your asking*

Yes, I was wondering if the person who is interested in adopting the dog offers to pay to get the dog screened for the Fanconi marker, prior to adopting it...would that be allowed?

[westcoastflea1]

no
every family with children under 12 should not be disqualified from having a dog, i just dont think basenjis are the best breed for a family with small children who believe their dog should tolerate whatever the little angels decide to dish out.

let those families go to a breeder who specializes in a line of brain dead labs you know the kind of dog that makes a good designer area rug for the home, big, furry, and loveable who will happily accept whatever little junior dishes out.
thank god most basenjis wont put up with that kind of behavior, must be why i like them so much :)

i personally cant see any basenji tolerating a child who mauls them, whether it is a 3 month old puppy from the best breeder on the planet or a dog from a rescue organization

of course there are exceptions to every rule, but seriously, how many breeders can predict that a 3 month old basenji pup will tolerate whatever abuse might be handed out by the children in the family its being sent to ?

many dogs that are in rescue have a history, a real live history, not just 3 months with a breeder who may have mom dad and grandparents, who knows the background of the puppy but CANNOT know with absolute certainty how that puppy will react to the stressors in its environment in the years to come

alot of dogs in rescue do have a known history, for example " this dog is being given up because little johnny tormented the dog causing the dog to growl and snap at little johnny and rather then punish little johnny we are giving up the dog, so brat lists that dog as needing to go to home without small children.

does that mean that a rescue dog being listed as going to a home with children over the age of 12 has something wrong with it that a puppy from a breeder wouldnt have?

no!
it means the dog has a HISTORY that a 3 month old puppy CANT have
if you put ten 3 month old puppies from reputable breeders into a situation where little johnny abuses the pups for a couple of years how many of those pups would end up being placed by brat in homes without small children ? (assuming of course that the families didnt contact the breeder to return the vicious dog)

so there are of course exceptions to every rule and im sure someone here has a basenji who loves being mauled by little kids.


to sum it up i dont think it is entirely a question of breeder pup vs rescue dog fitting into a family with little kids, i think its more the idea of will this family teach its children to show their BASENJI pup the respect it expects and deserves? and in the case of many rescue dogs the answer to that important question was no, and now that basenji needs to go to a home without small children.

because brat asks for adopters with children over 12 to adopt these dogs many of them will get a second chance to live in a family that does show them that respect, better late then never i suppose :)

so i hope i havent offended anyone with my opinions, getting a pup from a good breeder is a great thing and if it is the route you choose to take thats wonderful, but to lump all rescues into the category of being unreliable dogs for families simply because they are rescues and not a pup from a breeder just doesnt seem right.

i asked that sebastian be listed as going to homes with kids over 12 because i feel he would be happier in an environment where he didnt have to tolerate little rug rats bothering him not because there is anything wrong with him.

[DebraDownSouth]

Neither a breeder or rescue should place with a family who are idiots about controlling and training their children. No dog should put up with abuse.

Many rescues have "adults only or no children under 12" not because they are known to be an issue but because the rescue doesn't KNOW. It is one thing I think many rescues fail at... making sure foster homes can expose to children or have evaluated with them.

But it is one thing all should do... evaluate the FAMILY, especially the children, with dogs. If a parent can't control their child, it is not a good placement imho. Ever.

I do think the fanconi option is a good one...i.e. offer adopters the opportunity to pay for the test.

[lvoss]

no
every family with children under 12 should not be disqualified from having a dog, i just dont think basenjis are the best breed for a family with small children who believe their dog should tolerate whatever the little angels decide to dish out.


This is an incredibly rude statement about families. This and the rest of your post implies that all children under 12 years of age are animal tormentors and that somehow 12 years old is a magical age where they suddenly become angels with dogs. 12 years is an arbitrary cut off that really says nothing about the actual suitability of the children to be around a dog.

Screening of homes is very important for rescues and responsible breeders. Quite honestly any family who has kids that are going to tease and torment a dog shouldn't have one of any breed, period. There are a whole lot of families out there with young children that will make excellent homes for dogs of many breeds including basenjis. I have screened some awesome families that are looking to add a basenji and have young children. I have also screened homes with teenagers that should never own a dog.

I understand why rescue labels dogs as not good with small children but young puppies that are socialized into a family with young children often do well especially when they were selected by the breeder to have a temperament that matches that family. Breeders can tell an awful lot about a puppy by 3 months old and can really help to match the puppy to the family. A wrong placement of any sort can wreck a wonderful dog but careful screening and long term communication with homes are key to having successful placements.

[westcoastflea1]

i agree wholeheartedly with trying to evaluate the kids in the family
thats critical unfortunately its not fail safe

when it comes down to kids or the dog its always the dog that loses
and when a dog has already lost once seems like a good idea to try to even the odds in the dogs favor as much as possible doesnt it?

id like to know how you would recommend evaluating a rescue with children??
since im fostering it would be good to know wouldnt it?

sebastian has been approached by children at different times in public he treats them the same way he treats adults but i have no idea what he would do if anyone mistreated him whether they were child or an adult, i suspect he would try to defend himself by growling snarling or snapping .

since rescues are made up of volunteers i would suspect that there are some (like me ) who do not have the experience you do when it comes to evaluating dogs so perhaps the rescues feel it is better to be safe then sorry when it comes to placing rescue dogs.
so please if it is not too much trouble if you could give me some advice on evaluating a foster with children that would be wonderful :)
thanks

[lvoss]

since rescues are made up of volunteers i would suspect that there are some (like me ) who do not have the experience you do when it comes to evaluating dogs so perhaps the rescues feel it is better to be safe then sorry when it comes to placing rescue dogs.
so please if it is not too much trouble if you could give me some advice on evaluating a foster with children that would be wonderful :)
thanks

Considering the issues you have posted about his health, I think you have made a very good call for Sebastian that he would do better in a home with older children or perhaps even and adult only home. Not because children are likely to mistreat him but because when he is in pain he likely not going to want to bothered and young children have a hard time understanding that.

Sarah Kalnajs has two great videos for anyone who works with dogs. The Language of Dogs which just gives great video clips are all sorts of dog language and Am I Safe? which is geared more to shelter workers and rescue volunteers for evaluating dogs.

[westcoastflea1]

im not going to even start to try to point out the way in which my post was deliberately?? misunderstood

the point of my post was this
small children at times do not realize that "loving or mauling the dog" is not really something the dog enjoys, when a child is small it can take a huge amount of effort and time to teach the child the right way to treat the family dog, and the kids behavior does not constitute "abuse" in the eyes of many people
many families have parents that work full time and they are not home to supervise their children or their dog and as long as the dog does not object in such a way as to call attention to the situation the parents do nothing to stop it, iam of course not talking about torture for gods sake but things like dressing up the dog, dragging the dog around like a baby doll, running and falling on the dog when it is sleeping on the floor things that many people feel is normal and fine when it comes to kids interacting with the family dog, they feel the dog is there to entertain the kids. all kids need a dog right? so it better be good natured about the way the kids treat it
and many dogs go along with this, some even seem to enjoy it.

but for the dog that doesnt enjoy it and snaps or growls at the kids?
the kids dont get taken away its the dog that pays the price for the kids actions


i personally dont think that basenjis as a breed are as accepting of this type of behavior as some other types of dogs

having said this im sure there are some basenjis that do accept this behavior just as there are families that actually dont allow this kind of behavior, just as there are adults who treat their dogs badly and teenagers that are worse then small children, and families that make great adopters for basenji puppies, and breeders that can match puppies with families, there is no absolute about any of this so once again THE POINT i was trying to make was this:

i dont believe that basenjis as a breed are as accepting of the kinds of disrespectful behaviors small children are prone to exhibiting as other types of dogs might be

[lvoss]

the point of my post was this
small children at times do not realize that "loving or mauling the dog" is not really something the dog enjoys, when a child is small it can take a huge amount of effort and time to teach the child the right way to treat the family dog, and the kids behavior does not constitute "abuse" in the eyes of many people many families have parents that work full time and they are not home to supervise their children or their dog and as long as the dog does not object in such a way as to call attention to the situation the parents do nothing to stop it, iam of course not talking about torture for gods sake but things like dressing up the dog, dragging the dog around like a baby doll, running and falling on the dog when it is sleeping on the floor things that many people feel is normal and fine when it comes to kids interacting with the family dog, they feel the dog is there to entertain the kids. all kids need a dog right? so it better be good natured about the way the kids treat it
and many dogs go along with this, some even seem to enjoy it.


In my experience, the types of families you are describing are not the normal families looking for dogs and especially not the types of families I come across that are even considering a basenji. Most families that I see looking for a dog really want to do right by their dog and many will follow through if good recommendations for trainers and training are made and how to tips to manage a kid/dog household that work. Most of the misconceptions I run into come from the way they were raised around dogs but many are willing to consider a differing view on dog raising when they are able to see that it works. At the shelter we often demonstrate the training that we are doing with the dog when a perspective adopter is talking with us so they can see what the dog can do.

Obviously, any dog is going to be set up for failure in a household where there is a lack of supervision and kids are allowed to do whatever they please. In households where there is parental supervision and a commitment to responsible ownership, dogs thrive, including basenjis.

I understand what you are trying to say but I disagree with the broad generalizations about both families and the breed. I don't think they do either justice.

I also think that ALL dog owners, irregardless of breed, would be doing their dog a huge favor by playing games like "Grab Me, Feed Me" and "Baby Bird" so that their dogs are classically conditioned to associate touch, even occassional rough touching, and hands moving towards their heads with "good things are about to happen", like a really yummy treat being popped in my mouth.

[khanis]

Perhaps I should make a point NOT to post pictures of my BASENJIS dressed up in the clothes I buy for them.

Perhaps I should... then people could see how much I torture my poor Basenjis.. dressing them up... teaching them to walk like a wheelbarrow... making them dance/boogie...
sounds like pure torture... so much so that they still seem to be fabulous companions and wonderful specimens of the breed...


I do agree with Lisa... the folks you speak of are NOT the kind I have ever run into looking for a Basenji.. maybe I don't breed enough since I haven't met those folks... through my pups, adults, or rescue.

[nomrbddgs]

I don't think that these dogs CAN'T be good with children. As has been said, it depends on how the parents raise the child. I have 2 1/2 year old grandchild who came back to live with us. And I must say, for dogs that were not exposed to children on a regular bases, mine have done wonderfully, because my daughter taught her son the boundaries. It doesn't take much to say, No, I don't think so, you are not treating the dog that way and redirect. I also have a friend who had a child after she had her B's and he has also done great with them. So, it can be done, quite easily. People have to remember there are always consequences to your actions, even for children.

[Quercus]

Everybody is making really good points here. I think it may be overreaching to consider normal child activity as abusive. Basenjis (in general) ARE a little less tolerant of normal childhood shenanigas (sp?) than lots of other breeds (in general). But that doesn't mean they are (in general) not appropriate for families. A basenji with good temperament AND good social skills may object to being accidentally fallen on, but will not do any actual damage....where a lab may not notice being fallen on.

Most families who are interested in investing time, money and love in a dog are not going to let their children be abusive the family pet. But kids do run, they do trip, they do throw balls, they do accidentally sit on a basenji under a blanket (ask Querk!), they do run around with food, and drop food, and try to pick it back up. There are lots of possibilities for bad dog behavior that have nothing to do with bad child behavior. So let's not exclusively blame kids.

In the brutally honest picture of it...dogs are dogs.....and they should be viewed and treated and respected as that. Parents are responsible, bound by love, genes, social pressure and LAW to keep their children safe. And if a dog is going to bite a child in the normal course of everyday life...then yes, the dog will lose.

IMO, if there is any doubt that a dog might not be okay with young kids, then the safest option is to not place with children. But, there is a HUGE difference between 5 and 12...and a lot of dogs would be fine with seven year olds that would hate living with two year olds...kwim?

I guess what I am trying to say, is that every dog in every situation is unique. I don't know if it benefits anyone to say 'Basenjis aren't appropriate for families with small children'

[lvoss]

Very well said Andrea. And as for your list of things that might happen living with a family, well, I think my husband has done well over half the things on the list. I know I have done a few.

[YodelDogs]

they feel the dog is there to entertain the kids. all kids need a dog right? so it better be good natured about the way the kids treat it
and many dogs go along with this, some even seem to enjoy it.

but for the dog that doesnt enjoy it and snaps or growls at the kids?
the kids dont get taken away its the dog that pays the price for the kids actions

I'm going to stick out my neck here.

I live in the southern US and I frequent a forum that is used by hunters in this area. The attitude of many of these "old school" hunters is exactly what westcoastflea wrote above. The men have their hunting dogs and they get a dog for the kids. The kids' dog is to keep the kids entertained and it is expected to accept anything the kids do to it, period. If the dog so much as growls at the kids, lord help it. The dog will get "whooped" or the family will "get rid of" it. The rare man will shoot the dog. Yes, shoot the dog. This type of attitude is gradually being reduced thanks to the calm education of members on the forum but it does still exist.

It isn't just hunters who have that kind of attitude though. I have run into many pet owners over the years who feel the same way. Well, minus the shooting. They really do expect dogs to tolerate anything.

[Quercus]

I'm going to stick out my neck here.

I live in the southern US and I frequent a forum that is used by hunters in this area. The attitude of many of these "old school" hunters is exactly what westcoastflea wrote above. The men have their hunting dogs and they get a dog for the kids. The kids' dog is to keep the kids entertained and it is expected to accept anything the kids do to it, period. If the dog so much as growls at the kids, lord help it. The dog will get "whooped" or the family will "get rid of" it. The rare man will shoot the dog. Yes, shoot the dog. This type of attitude is gradually being reduced thanks to the calm education of members on the forum but it does still exist.

It isn't just hunters who have that kind of attitude though. I have run into many pet owners over the years who feel the same way. Well, minus the shooting. They really do expect dogs to tolerate anything.

Of course, there ARE people out there like that. In fact, I know an educated woman who had a family pet euthanized after her toddler tripped over it, and it snapped at him...not bit...growled/air snapped. She had the elderly dog euthanized THAT day.

Do I blame the dog? Certainly NOT...Do I blame the kid? Not at all...I blame the mom for having unrealistic expectations of the dog. Dogs used to be treated like dogs, there wasn't a bunch of unrealistic expectations of their behavior. If a kid teased a dog, and got bitten the parents chalked it up to a life lesson. Not every puppy owner thought their dog was going to grow into Cujo because it play bit their hands. Ugh, I could go on and on about how this is just one symptom of something wrong in our culture, but I will stop now :)

[westcoastflea1]

Quercus Basenjis

thank you very much you seem to have gotten the point of what i was saying especially this sentence "A basenji with good temperament AND good social skills may object to being accidentally fallen on, but will not do any actual damage....where a lab may not notice being fallen on".
AND so my point all along has been exactly that, where the lab will accept it the basenji might growl or snap and for many normal everyday families this is enough to suggest to them that the dog is a danger to the children and the basenji has to go
and AGAIN my point has NOT been that children are abusive or torturers or that we should blame them for their behavior, but that their everyday childish behaviors when seen through the eyes of the basenji might very well be considered abusive and the basenji will react accordingly, so why put the basenji in that position to begin with?
to me this discussion is along the same lines as placing a 2 pound chihauhua in a home with toddlers in it, sure you could say that many homes would be great the parents would teach the toddler etc etc etc but IN GENERAL it wouldnt be a good idea would it?
this is a rather extreme example but i hope it gets my point across?
so while i dont think there can be an absolute when it comes to any breed i still dont believe that basenjis IN GENERAL are AS GOOD as other breeds when it comes to dealing with the disrespectful, (meaning normal childish behavior) of children and many ignorant adults
BUT would we really want them to be?

i absolutely agree with everything else you said as well :)

[westcoastflea1]

hey robyn my family was from down south and you are absolutely correct
unfortunately even here in the north the attitude while not as extreme is still alive and well
take the family with 2 doctors mom and dad
highly educated in the million dollar home with the designer pup
mom and dad work 5 days a week 8 to 6 and have a nanny to watch 3 little kids
how much education or time do you think they put into teaching their kids how to respect the family dog? mom comes home exhausted throws frozen food on the table and calls it good, and if the dog keeps the kids entertained while she is doing so well thats even better isnt it?
so lets not look to closely at EXACTLY what it is that is keeping the kids so amused, because after all its just a dog right?

these families (and there are more of them then the other types of families) have a dog cause they have kids and all kids should have a dog and should that dog not tolerate the childrens normal childish behavior its gone, and yes ive seen the kids fall on the dog, dress it up in clothing and drag it around the house like a large doll,
is that wrong? no not if you are an adult basenji owner who knows how to read her dogs cues as to whether they enjoy something or not, but for 3 little kids to do so when they do not have what it takes to judge whether the dog is tolerating it or actually enjoys it is another thing altogether.
so whle this behavior may not be considered abuse i do believe it shows an extreme lack of respect for that particular animal, and should not be allowed, i wouldnt expect most basenjis to tolerate it as well as some other breeds might.
these families are not a minority and most of these families i dont believe should own a basenji, hence my statement that basenjis are not the best breed for families with small children

[westcoastflea1]

and again quercus you are absolutely correct

if you took 20 basenjis, normal basenjis, not hand raised from a breeder who specifically socialized them to put up with these kinds of behaviors and had a toddler fall over them while they were sleeping how many would growl or snap at the air?

and in the same situation if you took 20 brain dead yellow labs or any other breed that has been tinkered with to produce "dogs that are good with children" and ran the same test how many would snap and growl?
my bet would be that more basenjis by quite a few would snap or growl as compared to the yellow labs
and so how many would end up in rescue as needing homes for children over the age of 12 as compared to the labs?

[westcoastflea1]

and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life

im home with sebastian 24/7 because between the howling when i leave the house which means i cant leave the house and now the back issues that mean he cant go for walks, or go to the dog park where we used to spend hours every day so that i COULD get out of the house at least for a little while, i can safely say "I HAVE NO LIFE", absolutely none for at least a month
so look forward to talking to yall for another few weeks :)

[nomrbddgs]

[QUOTE=westcoastflea1;120757]and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life
QUOTE]

I have to laugh, sorry! LOL Sometimes, yes we all feel that way (at times only) Do you feel a little disturbed yet?? Sorry again, I have a strange sense of humor. Nice to have you around though.

But that is exactly what I mean when I say a child is a child and a dog is a dog. Dogs do not reason, they react. Children don't think-they act.

That's all. It's up to the parent to parent the child in a way that shows the child the consequences of it's actions. If you fall on a dog, you might get bit, but it's your own dang fault for not watching what you were doing.

[Quercus]

and again quercus you are absolutely correct

if you took 20 basenjis, normal basenjis, not hand raised from a breeder who specifically socialized them to put up with these kinds of behaviors and had a toddler fall over them while they were sleeping how many would growl or snap at the air?

and in the same situation if you took 20 brain dead yellow labs or any other breed that has been tinkered with to produce "dogs that are good with children" and ran the same test how many would snap and growl?
my bet would be that more basenjis by quite a few would snap or growl as compared to the yellow labs
and so how many would end up in rescue as needing homes for children over the age of 12 as compared to the labs?

I am not sure who is arguing on what side of the argument anymore ;) I do know from experience and observation that Basenjis (and other dogs)that are raised from puppyhood around young children are usually bomb-proof. And I think that might have been the original point of this thread?? I am sure that there are dogs in rescue that may be great around kids....but as you said, if you don't know for sure, why risk it?

My main objection to your reasoning is that there is a HUGE...vast even....difference between toddlers and twelve year-olds. A dog that would not be suitable for a family with a three year old, may be perfect for a family with a seven and ten year old. And I disagree that the majority of families interested in having a family dog are running amok. Between interacting with hundreds of families through my dog training business, and probably that many within my circle of friends and aquaintances....I can think of very few that have a dog who is being subjected to child torture ;)

[Kipawa]

Sorry again, I have a strange sense of humor.

Now, is it possible that ALL basenji lovers kind of have a strange sense of humor? Perhaps that is what draws us to these wonderful dogs.

[Quercus]

and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life

im home with sebastian 24/7 because between the howling when i leave the house which means i cant leave the house and now the back issues that mean he cant go for walks, or go to the dog park where we used to spend hours every day so that i COULD get out of the house at least for a little while, i can safely say "I HAVE NO LIFE", absolutely none for at least a month
so look forward to talking to yall for another few weeks :)

No offense intended, but you need to find a way to be able to leave the house! I can't remember what his specifics are, but you need to find a way so that he cannot control your life by howling. Are you following any sort of behavioral mod program with him?

[westcoastflea1]

i agree more than i can say
reminds me of an incident when my son was about 6 his friend came up to me complaining that my son threw a rock at him
when i asked him why will threw a rock the kid replied because i threw one at him
nuff said

as to your sense of humor?

i just sent an email to a basenji person in gray near where i live who emailed me last night

part of the email i sent said and i quote "since sebastian arrived 2 weeks ago the only two activities that i have been able to participate in are walks and the dog park.

the dog park in particular has saved my sanity, we go there for hours everyday it provides me with a break from sebastian because when we are home he spends his time no more then 4 feet from me and sleeps in my bed

in the beginning i didnt get enough sleep due to sebastians cleaning of himself in bed for hours and at all hours of the night, thats when i REALLY needed some space from him and the dog park provided it.

now that ive been told that sebastian can no longer go to the dog park or take walks the only thing that is keeping me from running from the house naked screaming in horror while ripping out my hair is the fact that im just trying to take it one day at a time period.

that and a neighborhood dog friendly store that sells large bottles of red wine cheap :)

it should be fun for everyone here to watch my mental state slowly disintegrate as the days go by

you guys can start making bets on when i will finally crack :)

[westcoastflea1]

no offense intended?? none taken believe me
ill be the first to say i NEED to get out of the house :)

sebastians problem doesnt seem to be that he doesnt trust that i will come back. i know you deal with that by closing a door and an opening it a second later using a code word and increasing the time you spend on the other side of the door
the problem i believe is that sebastian doesnt want to be alone, period,
and he will howl and howl and howl if left completely alone

how on earth do you deal with that?
i have roommates and rent my home so i cant let him howl

ive been told that it may get better with time, that it could be that since he was in the shelter for a month he needs to be with people and that time will help him get over it

at times i have left the house when my roommate was home its a favor that i have to ask for so i dont ask often

he says sebastian whines a bit then settles down

so again i dont think its that he doesnt trust that im coming back its that he needs company, any company, not really choosy about who.

im hoping that maybe an adoptive home with a companion dog will be the answer?
but i have no way of testing this theory
in the meantime im stuck
any suggestions?

[Quercus]

no offense intended?? none taken believe me
ill be the first to say i NEED to get out of the house :)

sebastians problem doesnt seem to be that he doesnt trust that i will come back. i know you deal with that by closing a door and an opening it a second later using a code word and increasing the time you spend on the other side of the door
the problem i believe is that sebastian doesnt want to be alone, period,
and he will howl and howl and howl if left completely alone

how on earth do you deal with that?
i have roommates and rent my home so i cant let him howl

ive been told that it may get better with time, that it could be that since he was in the shelter for a month he needs to be with people and that time will help him get over it

at times i have left the house when my roommate was home its a favor that i have to ask for so i dont ask often

he says sebastian whines a bit then settles down

so again i dont think its that he doesnt trust that im coming back its that he needs company, any company, not really choosy about who.

im hoping that maybe an adoptive home with a companion dog will be the answer?
but i have no way of testing this theory
in the meantime im stuck
any suggestions?

Do you know why he was surrendered?
Is the info about him and his problems on another thread? I will look for it

[Quercus]

Wow! Okay so I read thru the other posts.

Has the pooping issue resolved? A few thoughts I had...he had tapeworms, right...so dealing with that is probably effecting his g.i. system. He is on some meds? or was...so that could mess him up too. And you mentioned marrow bones? Those will make for unpredictable pooping as well.

If he isn't destructive in the house, you need to just let him howl it out. Tell your neighbors and roomates your plan, make sure they understand that it is a training issue. And unless you allow him to realize howling won't make you stay or come back, he will keep doing it. Do short trips at first. Have someone else report to you how long he howled. Lots of these 'howlers' stop within 10 mintues or so when they realize it is useless.

Also, I think you may be throwing to much "newness" at him, in reading over your posts. He needs to settle and have a routine that doesn't include meeting new dogs and new people just yet, that could be adding to his anxiety. And that routine shouldn't be all about him, and what he wants. If this were my project, I think I would have a daily schedule, where I would have some time that I left the house (even if I didn't have to) and some walking time (can be slow to protect his back), and some training time. This dog has some special needs...but they should all be able to be addressed...but he might need some tough love ;)

You are really sweet...I would never let a licking, growling, wormy dog stay in my BED!!

[westcoastflea1]

he was treated for tapeworms almost 1 1/2 weeks ago
sebastian has put on 2 1/2 pounds since he arrived and looks great.

sebastians routine has been a walk in the late morning then 3 or 4 hours at the dog park in the mid to late afternoon since i got him .
with this routine sebastians behavior has improved dramatically
the licking is much much better he is completely confident now when meeting new dogs in the last week sebastian played with several dogs and i even heard a few baroos from him when he was watching other dogs play

as far as obedience he of course has to sit and stay before going out the door, i worked on recall at the dog park,
right now im teaching him "go pee" which i think is important when its raining, he hates the rain , but needs to understand that when i take him out even if its raining its for a purpose and the quicker he does it the quicker we get inside, and hes one SMART dog, so hell learn really quickly.
so this afternoon i had some appts that i needed to keep so brought sebastian to my daughters house so she could be with him while i was gone
sebastian was fine he didnt even seem to notice i wasnt there,

so the problem isnt that i leave and hes worried i wont be back its that i leave him in the house ALONE
so if i understand correctly this is something that can only be cured by tough love?
if i know for sure that this is the right thing to do then of course ill do it.
i have decided that he will continue his mid morning walks, at this point they will be cut back to 3 blocks to the post office and 3 back letting him sniff as long as he wants and trying not to put any pressure on his harness
the idea is to let him poop on the walk so that way i can pretty much ensure that he wont poop in the house again .
could be right that its just a combo meds worms etc causing this strange behavior.

he had another pain episode last night even with the metacam and muscle relaxants i called the vet today to see if we need to up the dose from 20 mgs once a day to 20 mgs twice a day

i can try the tough love thing if i KNOW that it is the right way to approach this problem, my only concern is that sebastian gets rather frantic while looking for me racing thru the house and up the stairs and im not sure this would be good for his back right now?
ive also just been hoping that with a little time sebastian would improve and that i would then be able to leave the house without his howling am i just in never never land with that thought ?

[DebraDownSouth]

I agree... raising dogs to expect the unexpected and expect it to be okay is a good thing. I pick mine up, I turn them over, I take their food bowls or stick my hands in it and give it back or drop in even yummier stuff.

And having lived North South and west, the mentality of "if a dog bites kill it" isn't just a southern thing. Which is why a good home visit and evaluation is important. I have people come to MY house and I go to theirs with my own rescues. I want to see how kids behave at home and in public.

For the record, West, I didn't think you were saying all kids are abusive.

As for evaluating with children, again I urge you to contact Brat to work with you. Inexperienced foster homes are great but I believe should be used only on dogs already evaluated if possible. I teach dogs the "leave it" command. Then I have kids squeal, play, throw balls, ride bikes.. do everything possible to set off prey drive. I let them run toward the dog and pop them a treat. I work to teach them that children are a good thing. I have children give them obedience commands for treats. I have kids EAT around them (a challenge with basenji, lol). Needless to say I am less worried about basenji with children than my chow and rottie rescues, but you still want to know.

Not sure what the back issue is but if it is something serious, I can only agree that a home with kids for a dog who may have pain probably isn't good. But the not being able to leave alone must be handled or this dog is not placeable. If you absolutely cannot allow him to howl it out and stop before going in, Brat may need to find a foster home that has a dog for companionship and the ability to let him howl.

[sharronhurlbut]

Westcoast, can you block off the stairs so he only has one room or the downstairs, when your gone?

[debbi j.]

he had another pain episode last night even with the metacam and muscle relaxants i called the vet today to see if we need to up the dose from 20 mgs once a day to 20 mgs twice a day

i can try the tough love thing if i KNOW that it is the right way to approach this problem, my only concern is that sebastian gets rather frantic while looking for me racing thru the house and up the stairs and im not sure this would be good for his back right now?
ive also just been hoping that with a little time sebastian would improve and that i would then be able to leave the house without his howling am i just in never never land with that thought ?


Have you spoken to Roberta about Sebastian's issues?

debbi j.

[Quercus]

he was treated for tapeworms almost 1 1/2 weeks ago
sebastian has put on 2 1/2 pounds since he arrived and looks great.

sebastians routine has been a walk in the late morning then 3 or 4 hours at the dog park in the mid to late afternoon since i got him .
with this routine sebastians behavior has improved dramatically
the licking is much much better he is completely confident now when meeting new dogs in the last week sebastian played with several dogs and i even heard a few baroos from him when he was watching other dogs play

as far as obedience he of course has to sit and stay before going out the door, i worked on recall at the dog park,
right now im teaching him "go pee" which i think is important when its raining, he hates the rain , but needs to understand that when i take him out even if its raining its for a purpose and the quicker he does it the quicker we get inside, and hes one SMART dog, so hell learn really quickly.
so this afternoon i had some appts that i needed to keep so brought sebastian to my daughters house so she could be with him while i was gone
sebastian was fine he didnt even seem to notice i wasnt there,

so the problem isnt that i leave and hes worried i wont be back its that i leave him in the house ALONE
so if i understand correctly this is something that can only be cured by tough love?
if i know for sure that this is the right thing to do then of course ill do it.
i have decided that he will continue his mid morning walks, at this point they will be cut back to 3 blocks to the post office and 3 back letting him sniff as long as he wants and trying not to put any pressure on his harness
the idea is to let him poop on the walk so that way i can pretty much ensure that he wont poop in the house again .
could be right that its just a combo meds worms etc causing this strange behavior.

he had another pain episode last night even with the metacam and muscle relaxants i called the vet today to see if we need to up the dose from 20 mgs once a day to 20 mgs twice a day

i can try the tough love thing if i KNOW that it is the right way to approach this problem, my only concern is that sebastian gets rather frantic while looking for me racing thru the house and up the stairs and im not sure this would be good for his back right now?
ive also just been hoping that with a little time sebastian would improve and that i would then be able to leave the house without his howling am i just in never never land with that thought ?

Well, it is hard to accurately assess a situation over the internet :) Tough love might not be the ONLY way to do it...there is rarely only one answer to solving a problem...but right now his undesirable behavior is causing you to be unable to leave your house. You need to determine if he will howl for hours, or minutes. If the answer is hours, he may need to be medicated to get past the worst of his anxiety. If it is minutes, he needs to learn that howling does no good. The fact that he doesn't shred, dig, rip up or otherwise freak out when he is alone, makes me think the howling is a habit that has always brought him attention. It may improve with time, but it might not.

Definitely talk to your contacts at BRAT. I am sure they have done a lot more behavioral stuff with rescue dogs than I have. Either way, pick a strategy and stick with it. But I definitely think you need to have a structured plan for behavior mod in place :)

[westcoastflea1]

oh yes roberta is up to date on all of sebastians issues

shes been an incredible help with everything i talk to her almost every day

i had requested a trouble free foster since ive been without a dog for over 2 years, i just moved into my new house with new roommates on the first of sept so i really wanted a very easy dog to start the process off,
but i got sebastian just a few days after i moved in and it has been a bit different then i expected :)


roberta understands all of this and supports my using the forum as a sounding/support board
she feels there are many knowledgeable people here and the way i see it it does "take a village" but i run all suggestions from the posters here by roberta before acting on any.
i feel like a new mom with a colicky baby who can use all the support she can get :)
i figure im not the only foster home roberta has to deal with and so when i feel something is really not important enough to ask her about but is something im wondering about the forums are a good way to discuss it.

so what it comes down to is this, we are all helping sebastian so that some day he will go to a good adoptive family :)

and thats a really beautiful thing isnt it?

so thank you to all of you who have taken the time to give suggestions on how to deal with sebastian :)
i REALLY do appreciate it

[DebraDownSouth]

For the record, BRAT does not do Fanconi marker testing because we can not afford it. If we tested each basenji that came into rescue each year, it would cost over $30,000 per year. Our adoption fees do not begin to cover our direct vetting expenses as it is. This is the primary reason BRAT does not test. In addition, the test is not 100% accurate.
debbi j.
I don't see this as BRAT bashing. I am involved in the making of BRAT policy, and I know that is not the main reason. You may have heard this from individual BRAT members, but the opinion of individual members does not stand for the organization.

debbi j.So are you saying BRAT doesn't do it because of finances but would let it be done if funds? Or are you saying it doesn't do it because of finances but also wouldn't allow it even if they had funds due to the "labeling." I don't care if it is a MAIN reason, I care if BRAT would prohibit a rescuer testing dogs they foster or if people raised money to help BRAT test rescues.