I posted pics/comments on the new girls on this link….http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?13139-KS-Wichita-Eureka-Free-Bs-2-M-1-Yr-Old-amp-1-F-1-Yr-Old-amp-1-F-7-Yr-Old-On-Craigslist#post156254
Part 2: Training methods,Our Story, Our Experiences…Warning long post...
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All that said, it is incredibly unfair of you to say to those who have had to turn to drugs to help with dogs that have severe anxiety disorders that they are just unwilling to "go through the retraining process". Drugs for anxiety is not something that any one that I know has considered as the easy alternative to training. The ones I know who have used them have done so because their dogs were doing physical harm to themselves, they showed clear signs of suffering from debilitating anxiety disorders. I am glad that your dog just needed a refresher in crate training and there are many who need just that and really are only having a temper tantrum but there are also dogs out there that suffer from very real disorders where a training protocol alone will not help.
+1.
As the owner of two Basenjis – one of which responded well to crate training, and the other which suffered from extreme anxiety -- I will attest that it most certainly is NOT an unwillingness to train properly that led me to temporarily give medications to my dog. These medications were only used after six MONTHS of intensive training {in which the dog tore the crap out of not only bedding, etc. but also two crates} AND working with a behaviorist and veterinarian. Even after he began doing better,he suffered a setback and tore his nose up a bit when I was out of town for a few days earlier this summer -- family members were still home; his routine had not changed, but I was gone and that did it for him. His life is good; his life is comfortable; his training is positive; HE is an anxious dog. He is DIFFERENT than our other dogs.
We had one member on the forum -- I don't think they are a member now -- some may recall whose dog had done serious damage to his face trying to get out of his crate.
I have heard from others where the dogs have actually torn off nails and damaged toes fighting the crate.MOST dogs are relatively easily crate trainable by using patience, persistence, treats, consistency, etc. but there are some that simply are not. And to classify those owners who become a bit desperate because they haven't slept for six months and their dogs are tearing themselves up as simply "unwilling to to through the re-training process" is unfair.
Until you have experienced a dog with serious and very real anxiety, you cannot know. Trust me -- I've been a dog owner for my entire life, different breeds, different personalities, and I have never experienced a dog with the anxiety this one has... EVER.
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On that note, I will say there certainly ARE owners who aren't willing to do the training it takes. I was at a feed store the other day and a man walked in wanting to know if there was any dog food that contained "doggy downers". The folks at the store were a bit perplexed and the man explained "I'm tired of my lab running all over the yard. Do you have any doggy downers?". They said no, so he asked about foods that may be good for weight gain. They pointed him to a food and he bought it saying, "Well, then I'll just make sure he's too fat to run around so much".
I suggested he get rid of the dog, but he ignored me.
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Jason and Miranda…..very informative post, I hope that it will help many people who are wondering about basic training in the home..... I had to say I think it is soo funny that you refer repeatedly to the FACE, as that is Zaire's main nickname... She is my little FACE.
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Jason and Miranda…..very informative post, I hope that it will help many people who are wondering about basic training in the home..... I had to say I think it is soo funny that you refer repeatedly to the FACE, as that is Zaire's main nickname... She is my little FACE.
Definitely… that was my thought also,but I got caught up in the anxiety thing.
Overall an excellent post, and yes, the FACE gets many a Basenji out of trouble.
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I agree lvoss… it is really unfair to say that people that have tried drugs to help with extreme anxiety did so because they didn't want to take the time to crate train when the pup was having a "temper" tantrum... as she said there are some with disorders that no matter what you do, can't be crated... so because of how/who they were bred (ie: puppymills/BYB with no socialization) some pedigree lines are know for crating problems and sometimes just that particular pup....
There are people that don't want to take the time to crate train and then there are the ones that can't be crated trained...
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I agree lvoss… it is really unfair to say that people that have tried drugs to help with extreme anxiety did so because they didn't want to take the time to crate train when the pup was having a "temper" tantrum... as she said there are some with disorders that no matter what you do, can't be crated... so because of how/who they were bred (ie: puppymills/BYB with no socialization) some pedigree lines are know for crating problems and sometimes just that particular pup....
There are people that don't want to take the time to crate train and then there are the ones that can't be crated trained...
Hello everyone, before this gets taken too far out of context, I think I need to address it. I know we are being misunderstood in certain area's of our post. It's most likely do to the fact that it was a long post, that contains some spelling and other errors, and most likely a few of our thoughts were not worded or presented in the best way. It is also easy to break apart a post and misunderstand what was meant because of the isolation of just one concept, paragraph, or sentence.
So please allow us to clarify this specific part of our post!
This is what we posted:
"Miranda and I did not even consider the use of drugs to treat this. I know there are many people that do because they do not wish to go through the retraining process. I will agree there may be certain cases that a dog needs medication, but I do not feel this is one of them."
Here we are certainly acknowledging the need and use of drugs in certain situations.
The last if it was presented correctly should have said, While I agree that there may be certain cases that a dog needs medication, I do not feel for "our dog" this is one of them.
We will edit and correct this in our post.
Miranda and I do feel in a lot of cases people are looking for short cuts, and in many cases people will immediately look for a drug solution. Unfortunately Vet's exist that are only too happy and willing to accommodate them. I have personally witnessed this type of situation more than once. We certainly have not ruled out situations that do require drug therapy and we apologize if we have been misunderstood.
We also realize that dogs are more than able to injure themselves while in a crate. I think this is a topic that should be considered in another post. There are certainly different types of crates available and its each has its pro's and con's. Miranda has first hand experience herself of dogs damaging themselves in crates from the time she worked for a vet in Iowa.
Ivoss, in regard to the dogs on the furniture, our post in no way stated that allowing your dog on the sofa meant that your dog was controlling you. Our exact words were "A Basenji will soon stake out their favorite resting spot which may or may not be what you would choose for them. At this point, either the dog controls you or control the dog."
In this case, we clearly think that once the dog has chosen something that the owner finds unacceptable, and have decided to "stake a claim" that the owner has lost some control. From what we know there have been cases where dogs have staked out a claim for a resting spot and have shown aggression towards their owners and others when challenged for that spot. We wish to avoid this type of behavior if at all possible.
We had hoped that the disclaimers both at the beginning and end of the posts had made it clear that our methods and thoughts only relate our circumstances. But let us take this opportunity to reiterate, this is our experience only, and YMMV.
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Thanks for clarifying… and you are correct there are too many people looking for the "quick" fix.... and think that you tell/teach your pet something one time and that should be it... they should do that for its entire life... and do it immediately.
Like house training... that always gets me... people get a puppy and for 2 days maybe, the pup has no accidents, why? because the human was paying attention... day 3... they "forget" to take the pup out lots, they stop watching their every move.... and yup, accident... then say "what is wrong with this dog.... are they doing this for spite?"....
My mentors, Leighton's many, many years ago had a couple that waited 1 1/2years for their pup.... they were so excited to get their little girl and take her home... two days later they brought her back... WHY you might ask?... Because it was taking too long to house train and they really didn't have all that much time to give to the process..... -
Hello everyone, before this gets taken too far out of context, I think I need to address it. I know we are being misunderstood in certain area's of our post. It's most likely do to the fact that it was a long post, that contains some spelling and other errors, and most likely a few of our thoughts were not worded or presented in the best way. It is also easy to break apart a post and misunderstand what was meant because of the isolation of just one concept, paragraph, or sentence.
So please allow us to clarify this specific part of our post!
This is what we posted:
"Miranda and I did not even consider the use of drugs to treat this. I will agree there may be certain cases that a dog needs medication, but I do not feel this is one of them."
Here we are certainly acknowledging the need and use of drugs in certain situations.
I quoted the above paragraph in its entirety in my post, I also quoted the 3 paragraphs before it because I did feel when I read this that it came across as saying that medicating a dog in the situation of crate training was inappropriate which I thought was an unfair statement because many anxiety disorders present as crate issues. I am glad you clarified your statement but I did quote the paragraph in its entirety which you imply I did not, I just came to a different conclusion then you intended.
Ivoss, in regard to the dogs on the furniture, our post in no way stated that allowing your dog on the sofa meant that your dog was controlling you. Our exact words were "A Basenji will soon stake out their favorite resting spot which may or may not be what you would choose for them. At this point, either the dog controls you or control the dog."
In this case, we clearly think that once the dog has chosen something that the owner finds unacceptable, and have decided to "stake a claim" that the owner has lost some control. From what we know there have been cases where dogs have staked out a claim for a resting spot and have shown aggression towards their owners and others when challenged for that spot. We wish to avoid this type of behavior if at all possible.
I need to clarify my disagreement with this section of your post. I do not feel that it is the fact that owners allow or don't allow access to furniture or parts of the house that create issue between owners and dogs. I think that most of these issues stem from the owner not taking the time to build a real working relationship with their dogs. It is not about where the dogs sleep, when it eats, or who walks through the door first. The real issue is whether you and your dog have a working relationship. To me this means building a working vocabulary of cues that you can use with your dog and being consistent in your expectations. Having TC in my house has definately taught me how much I take for granted that working vocabulary since she doesn't know "point" which I use frequently to move my dogs.
Issues of resource guarding, which you are describing in your quote about controlling space, are often made worse when a dog is challenged. Many dogs who show resource gaurding tendencies may have inherited them or learned them as a very young puppy before ever going to their home. Usually challenging a dog over the resource only escalates the problem. It is true that it is best to avoid these problems from happening. Good examples of techniques used to prevent resource gaurding issues are "Trading Up" and "Calling Off of Furniture or a Space". The goal is to avoid the confrontation.
We had hoped that the disclaimers both at the beginning and end of the posts had made it clear that our methods and thoughts only relate our circumstances. But let us take this opportunity to reiterate, this is our experience only, and YMMV.
That may be but when you make statements like, "I know there are many people that do because they do not wish to go through the retraining process." You need to be prepared that you have stepped outside the realm of your disclaimer. Also these forums are created for discussion so it shouldn't be surprising when someone responds with a differing opinion.
I agree with the heart of your post and it was a great sharing of your experience but there were parts where I felt the tone conveyed was that those who are struggle in these areas just don't want to work at it.
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I quoted the above paragraph in its entirety in my post, I also quoted the 3 paragraphs before it because I did feel when I read this that it came across as saying that medicating a dog in the situation of crate training was inappropriate which I thought was an unfair statement because many anxiety disorders present as crate issues. I am glad you clarified your statement but I did quote the paragraph in its entirety which you imply I did not, I just came to a different conclusion then you intended.
From Jason: You are certainly entitled to draw your own conclusions just as we have. We have no issue with that. We did not post our experiences or opinions to create argument or controversy. So keeping this in mind, as far as we are concerned this is not a dead issue we are not going to address again. End
I need to clarify my disagreement with this section of your post. I do not feel that it is the fact that owners allow or don't allow access to furniture or parts of the house that create issue between owners and dogs. I think that most of these issues stem from the owner not taking the time to build a real working relationship with their dogs. It is not about where the dogs sleep, when it eats, or who walks through the door first. The real issue is whether you and your dog have a working relationship. To me this means building a working vocabulary of cues that you can use with your dog and being consistent in your expectations. Having TC in my house has definately taught me how much I take for granted that working vocabulary since she doesn't know "point" which I use frequently to move my dogs.
Issues of resource guarding, which you are describing in your quote about controlling space, are often made worse when a dog is challenged. Many dogs who show resource gaurding tendencies may have inherited them or learned them as a very young puppy before ever going to their home. Usually challenging a dog over the resource only escalates the problem. It is true that it is best to avoid these problems from happening. Good examples of techniques used to prevent resource gaurding issues are "Trading Up" and "Calling Off of Furniture or a Space". The goal is to avoid the confrontation.
From Jason: Ivoss while I respect your opinions, even on the TV Show the "Dog Whisperer" there has been televised situations such as a dog on a bed refusing to move, and biting its owner. I seriously doubt they trained that dog to do that. We have also seen this type of behavior for ourselves, in real life situations. So there is some foundation and justification to the statement we made.End
That may be but when you make statements like, "I know there are many people that do because they do not wish to go through the retraining process." You need to be prepared that you have stepped outside the realm of your disclaimer. Also these forums are created for discussion so it shouldn't be surprising when someone responds with a differing opinion.
**From Jason:**We only responded to clarify any misunderstanding. We have no problem with differing opinions. We never claimed all, we did not point to anyone specific, we simply said it happens and it does. Anyone is welcome to dispute that if they wish. Based on our experiences, we have seen this happen, and unless you know we haven't then the disclaimer still applies. Another's person's view, or different opinion will not change our real life personal experiences. END
I agree with the heart of your post and it was a great sharing of your experience but there were parts where I felt the tone conveyed was that those who are struggle in these areas just don't want to work at it.
While we appreciate that you agree with the heart of our post, that was not our intended purpose. Our only intention was to share our experiences and views, thus the disclaimer! Yes, the tone did convey that there are some that do stuggle in these area's and actually do not want to work at it. Dog's are given up every day by people who are unwilling to make the sacrifices that are required of Dog Ownership! You are welcome to dispute this if you wish, but the numbers dogs given up that are in shelters and rescues certainly do reflect this.
Jason
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I volunteer at my local shelter and see these dogs first hand. I know exactly why they end up in shelters and some of those reasons include their owners feeling like failures because their experiences are that they put in what they feel is a lot of work and see no improvement. Actually, most owner relinquished dogs, vs stray pick ups, are because the owners have reached a point where they have become overwhelmed with behavior issues they are having. Many feel that they have given an honest try at tackling their dog's issues.
Our shelter has seen a very positive response by owners when they are provided with resources such as contact information for local trainers who do consults to help these owners work with their dogs.
Yes, there is a huge homeless animal problem in this country and though there are some who truly don't want to be bothered to do the work that it takes to own an animal, a much larger segment just needs education and access to resources including low cost vaccinations, training programs, and general pet ownership education.
