Is eating Science Diet better than not eating at all?

[Schouiffy]

Michelle, your B is so lucky to have you as a pup parent. Thanks for setting such a positive example of true canine care.

[tanza]

I think there is a difference in "tough love" and treating a dog that is ill…. Tough love is for the dogs that are healthy...

Michelle, you are doing all the right things.... I know how difficult it is with a sick or elder dog and wanting them to eat... especially ones with renal failure.. as the renal failure makes them sick to their tummy, therefore they don't want to eat....

Just curious, could she be dehydrated, even just a little? Maybe SubQ fluids a couple times a week would help? I know with Maggii, when she was in renal failure, the fluids were a God sent... kept her going for almost two years....

[DebraDownSouth]

@Tayda_Lenny:

Thanks for your concern… I have been working with Dr. Gonto about Tayda's condition for years now.

I'll be looking into making homemade food for her. I know dogs can hold out for food when they decide they don't want something anymore - and I've tried the "tough love" approach where I put the food down for 15 minutes and then pick it up... but at this point I just cant stand to see her lose more weight. She still jumps in circles for pasta....though.... she loves that stuff. lol.

Sorry I think you thought my emphasis was on Gonto/protocol. My "sick of hearing it" was about cyproheptadine. Because no matter what diet you choose, it is incredible for increasing appetite. I too tried the "tough love" and Sayblee got literally to where her ribs stood out. We ran every medical test.. she simply didn't care no matter what you fed her to eat enough not to be gaunt.

[Quercus]

I am going to stick my neck out and say if she will eat the Sci Diet, feed it to her. As long as it is within the parameters of how much protein she should be getting, and it doesn't mess up her other levels. If you haven't already, check with Dr. Gonto…I would be interested to see what he thinks about this...whether the quality of the food is more important than getting the food in. Some dogs do absolutely great on Sci Di, or Iams, or Euk, or even Dog Chow...just like some people can live their whole, long lives on Big Macs. Her situation is unique, and I would feel exactly like you do, that I want her to have a few extra pounds.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Thanks everyone - this is hard and I just want to do what is right for Tayda. Tayda just turned 8 years old. She was diagnosed when she was 6.

Quercus - that is exactly what I thought - my husband and I were talking about this in the store and we compared feeding her SD to us eating Taco Bell everyday. Certainly not GOOD for you but if you are starving, will you turn it down because it's not top quality food? I wouldn't. I plan to look into making food for her… right now seems like it will be labor and time intensive, but I'm sure it's like anything, once you get the hang of it it's not so bad. I spend quite a while everyday trying to get her to eat the food, and to keep Lenny from eating her food (he will swoop down on it at any chance)... I suppose I could use that same amount of time making the food if it will make her eat it right away.

Debra, as for the cyproheptadine, I will ask my vet about it. I'm already having to give her about 20 pills a day, and she is not always great at takin them. She goes through phases, and right now she is resisting the pills. So, I'm hesitant to add any more. But I will ask her about it. (the vet, not Tayda, ha ha)

It is possible she could be a little dehydrated right now. For the last 10 days we've been on a cross country road trip (we moved from CA back to CT!) and they have been crated in the car while we were traveling. We of course stopped for breaks and such, and there is a bowl of water in the crate for them, but they tend to not drink much when they are crated. Now that we are here, and she is back to drinking all that she wants, maybe it will get better? I hope so.

Speaking of protein content - right on the bag of the Science Diet - it lists the "minimum" protein content as 16%. Which is great for Tayda - I've been trying to keep her under 20%. But then I look at the Science diet website and it lists the "average" protein content as 22%. UGH! So which is it?

http://www.hillspet.com/products/sd-canine-adult-healthy-mobility-dry.html

Average vs. minimum? What kind of spread do they have with these protein contents? I have an email into Science Diet about this.

[tanza]

Didn't know that you moved back to CT… but I would say that since you have been traveling, I would really wonder if with the stress of traveling (even when they are used to it) and with Fanconi, I would think that she might be dehydrated.... and as my Vet always told me, increase of water intact will not solve the problem. I would talk to the Vet about doing some SubQ for her and see if that helps... In the end it can't hurt...

[DebraDownSouth]

Fortunately the cypro is a tiny pill And hey, if it makes her HUNGRY it will make tricking her to eat other pills hidden in food easier

I hope I never am where you are, my heart goes out to you. As for Hills, I have fed their diet formula when necessary. Are they on my top 20 dog foods? No. But absolutely better than nothing and better than most general one.

[Tayda_Lenny]

I have an appointment for Tayda's next set of bloodwork next monday so fingers crossed it goes well. I will ask about the cypro and the sub q fluids then… I heard back from Dr. Gonto and here is what he thought:

1. About the Science Diet: Let me put this plain and simple. Have you any idea how many dogs live on Science Diet? ZILLIONS. Any clue to how many SHOW DOGS eat the stuff? LOTS. Honest. Believe me, when I tell you that there are a MILLION levels of "quality" below Science Diet. At least that stuff is created with some SERIOUS veterinary nutritional experts running the controls and advising on the components. Not true with many "fru fru" brand "designer" diets at ten times the price.

2. About cutting high protein food w/ rice/pasta: NO…it really does not work that way. You may THINK you are "cutting" it half way, but the dog food is DENSE. The pasta and rice is NOT. You would need to do this by WEIGHT and DENSITY and I assure you, the amount of balanced dog food would be HUGELY cut, relative to the rice and pasta. NO WAY is that a good idea. I would FAR rather you feed the science diet...which, again, MILLIONS of dogs live on and which VETS approve of

3. He also had a few choice words about the dogfoodanalysis.com website. He basically thinks it's a bunch of bunk - that these foods with really high protein amounts will fry a dogs kidneys… and that grain is present in wild dogs' diets via the contents of the stomach of the animals they are eating.

I'm sure there will be lots of differing opinions about that site and perhaps what he had to say about Science Diet.... but I thought I'd pass on what he sent me since I'm sure people were wondering.

[tanza]

I think that you can't go wrong with listening to Dr. Gonto…. IMO

[Tayda_Lenny]

Yeah, I feel the same way.

[MacPack]

I agree with Andrea, if Tayda will eat it and loves it, feed it to her! I had many years of healthy dogs on Purina One, back before "high quality" foods were readily available, moved up to eliminate the yellow dye that was staining their teeth. Most of us, I dare say, don't eat as 'purely' as our dogs do! For a picky eater, go with what the dog likes.

[DebraDownSouth]

Well, I had already pretty much said what he said about Hills, but we will agree to disagree on the rest. Lots of research by actual vets and veterinary nutritionists (which he is neither) doesn't support his general nutrition stance. He is the expert on Fanconi! But nutrition in general.. not so much.

I am just glad you have support and hope we soon hear your beloved dog is gaining weight.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Well so much for the Science Diet - I just got off the phone w/ customer service because I noticed that the label on the bag says minimum protein content 16%, but their website lists "average protein content 22%". The guy told me that the food does not conform to what is on the label - that they are only minimums required by AAFCO and the information on the label does not indicate what is inside the bag. He said "the food in the bag conforms to what the website says - which is 22%."

I have actually checked the webiste information for all of the foods that I get at the store and this is the only one that I've ever found a descrepancy with.

UGH! Maybe that's not a big deal to a lot of people but it is a big damn deal to little Tayda and her kidneys!

Grrrrr…..

[lvoss]

On the K9Kitchen group that I am on, someone mentioned that they have had to switch their dog with renal insufficiency to Natural Balance Vegetarian formula. They use both the canned and dry.

http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/Vegetarian.html#Guaranteed

It has 18% protein.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Thanks Ivoss - I'll have to look into that food - though, I have stayed away from vegetarian formulas because the protocol states that mammal based protein sources are better for Fanconi dogs…. though, i wonder if that is compared to poultry... maybe vegetarian is better. I'll ask Dr. Gonto.

I think this may have been the last straw though - I will probably start trying to cook for her myself. Thanks for the link to the k9kitchen. I will be reaching out to them for some expertise soon.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Besides - now I don't trust the labels at all - "minimum 18% protein" could mean anything!

[DebraDownSouth]

Darn Michelle. But Hills Rx for kidneys, both dry and canned, average under 15 percent. Have you tried those? I mean, if your dog likes Hills regular, perhaps the RX tastes similarly?
http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-canine-kd-canine-renal-health-dry.html

I seem to remember that Pitcairn has recipes for low protein home made dog food.

I found this, but it doesn't say what percent the protein is!

Hill's Dog food has this home-made recipe for Canine Restricted Protein Diet:

• 1/4 lb ground beef (do not use lean ground chuck)
• 2 cups cooked white rice (No salt added)
• 1 hard cooked egg (finely chopped)
• 3 slices white bread crumbled
• 1 tsp calcium carbonate (Tums tablet)

Cook beef in skillet, stirring til lightly browned. Stir in remaining ingredients and mix well. This mixture is rather dry and its palatability can be improved by adding a little water, not milk. Keep covered in refrigerator.

Feeding guide:

• 5 lbs 1/4 pound
• 10 lbs 1/2 pound
• 20 lbs 1 pound
• 40 lbs 1 1/2 pound
• 60 lbs 2 pounds
• 80 lbs 2 1/2 pound
• 100 lbs 3 pounds

Canned dog food

• Hill's prescription diet k/d canine (see above)
• Hill's prescription diet u/d canine (see above)
• Hill's prescription diet g/d canine (developed for dogs with heart disease or obese dogs with renal insufficiency)
• Purina veterinary diets NF kidney function canine formula
• Royal Canin veterinary diet canine renal MP modified formula
• Royal Canin veterinary diet canine renal LP modified formula

Also;
Examples of kidney disease dog food diets
Dry dog food for unfortunate canines with renal disease

• Hill's prescription diet k/d canine (developed to help manage dogs with kidney disease and heart disease)
• Hill's prescription diet u/d canine (developed for dogs with calcium oxalate, urate and other cystine urolithiasis but may also be presribed in case of advanced renal failure)
• Iams veterinary formula renal early stage
• Purina veterinary diets NF kidney function canine formula
• Royal Canin veterinary diet canine renal MP14 modified (for early stage kidney disease in small and medium dogs and for all stages of kidney disease in large and giant dog breeds)
• Royal Canin veterinary diet canine renal LP11 modified (for late stage kidney disease)

[coldsenji]

SciDiet beats nothing. Try the Kidney formula. I would recommend canned food for kidney problems.
The mammal meat requirement is from 'wet meat' and NOT dry food (dry food changes the protein). Some wet mammal meat should be part of the diet (I am not up-to-date with the hybrid protocol) so check the meat for kidney diet (usually chicken and pork… so a bit of pork daily could be good).
Home-made diets can be great but make SURE that it is balanced (minerals and vitamins) and you may have to repeat bloodwork after a couple of weeks to ensure that the mineral supplements are in correct amounts (the ones that can be measured in any case). Most homemade food require some supplements. DO NOT ADD the supplements while the food is warm. Wait until it is cold. Omega-3 can help too (fish oil or flax seed oil).
Use rigatoni pasta to hide the pills. Good pocket shape!
Good luck!

[elena86]

First, I want to say that my B has liver disease, not kidney…but he is also supposed to be on a low protein diet. He was diagnosed at age 11...he is 15 now! The vet initially suggested Science Diet, and Senji would rather starve to death than eat that, but I digress. To get to the point, I cook for him. Usually boiled chicken or turkey, white meat or legs. The organ meat or red meat stresses his liver. I add rice and vegetables to the broth. He grew up eating mostly Pedigree, but they keep changing the formula. I put a little bit of dry dog food down and then the rice/meat mixture on top. If he doesn't eat the dry dog food, he tends to get runny stools. Throw in any vegetable you think your B will eat, such as carrots, green beans, zucchini, peas, etc. (No mushrooms or onions!)He also likes to eat scrambled egg, cottage cheese or yogurt. Occasionally, he'll eat some white fish or salmon too. His coat looks great and he still runs around like a pup!