Pooping in crate!

[tanza]

IMO, 9wks is too young to go to one feeding. And he should be going right after eating, so if you are taking him out after eating and he goes, then he shouldn't be pooping in the crate right after you leave…. and IMO, depending on how long he is home alone, like over 5 to 6 hours, he is too young to hold it... especially if he is getting worked up.....

For the crate use newspaper then it is throw away....

[Darwin]

Well, yes thanks for the info on the feeding, I agree with that.

Regarding going after feeding, he usually goes in the morning, and then again after feeding and then he will do it in his crate like 15 minutes after I leave (even if he just pooped 30 minutes earlier!)

But yeah, I came home during lunch the first week so that he could be let out at 4 hours and by the end of the week he almost was making it, but unfortunately I can't do that anymore. So while I know he might continue to do this for another month or so, I am just looking for any tips on minimizing it.

Newspaper scares me as the breeder taught them to go on it. So if I put that in the crate, it is like encouraging it. Plus then he will still go crazy and mash it all with his paws and get it all over all the bars of the crate and fling it out against the walls

I love my little basenji, but this part is the hardest!

Thank you for the reply though!

[kiroja]

You could try getting a plastic crate? They are a little better at containing the poop. lol And sometimes they feel more secure and less stressed in a more enclosed crate.

Even though he hopped out of your box, you can still try an xpen. They make wire tops for them so it's almost impossible to escape. Then if you have a pen, he can have a small crate to sleep in, and then get a small kitty litter box or puppy pad that he can go on. If he's only 9 weeks then he can't really hold it more than 3 or 4 hours. You'll probably have to deal with the pooping for a while. It may complicate the house training issue slightly by allowing him to go in the house, but it can sure save you a lot of stress and clean up, and save the puppy stress too, if he has a way to eliminate during the day. As he grows up it won't be hard for him to learn that he really needs to go outside all the time now. You can phase out the litterbox. Also you can just leave a litterbox out in the house all the time while he's young. Still take him out lots and encourage the eliminating outside, but then he has a safe haven indoors to if he really has to go! Going on a puppy pad or in a special box that is scented to entice bathroom duties is very different than the dog just eliminating wherever it feels like it in the house.

Also it sounds like you got him aweful young, he really should have stayed with his littermates a couple weeks longer. Yes, dogs poop more when they are stressed. It may take him a few more weeks to settle in with you.

I would try just newspaper in the crate. I know they love to shred it, but it's the safest thing in that case. You don't want them to get a blockage from fibers. Don't feel bad about not putting anything in the crate if you need to. My dogs don't have anything in their crate, they have always been shredders so I just don't do bedding anymore, period. They have free roam of the house and all furniture day and night, except the youngster is crated when we're gone. But they only have to deal with crates when traveling or babies and that is when they are more stressed and likely to shred. I have one I guarantee will go at it the second you close the door. The others can be trusted occasionally depending on the situation. But they are just fine on the crate bottom.

For feeding, you still should be feeding twice a day, he is aweful young. I would just give him a minimal amount in the morning, maybe a handful of kibble. Then you can give him a bigger portion when you get home from work. Then also if you need to add in another evening snack to make sure he gets it all, you can.

Just remember, puppies require a lot of patience! Whatever you do, be consistent and it will pay off in the long run.

Also, I live in SE Mich, so if you ever need any help with things, don't hesitate.

[Darwin]

kiroja,

Thank you for the reply. Being that we just switched him to a smaller crate, I am a bit hesitant to go to a 3rd crate right away as he already is showing signs that he willingly doesn't mind being in the smaller wire crate, which he never did with the somewhat larger one.

As far as the x-pen with a top goes, I am going to look into that, I might go that route, thank you for that.

We actually picked him up 4 days before we were supposed to (8 weeks) but it worked out much better for both the breeder and us … long story. But I think he is mostly over the separation already, that seemed to just really be an issue the first couple days.

Thanks for the input on leaving the crate blanketless, he might get that as a trial run on Monday.

I sure do wish I could come home everyday at lunch to let him out, but I just can't ... and there is nobody else I can trust to do it.

I am going to adjust his food a bit so that the morning portion is much smaller and the evening portion is larger, hopefully that will indeed help a bit.

And yes, we have tons of patience, I just don't want to find out that we could have done something a better way after it is too late, ya know?

I live in SW Michigan, about 10 miles SW of Grand Rapids.

Thanks,

Nick

[kiroja]

Nick, you're doing the right thing by tring to find out all you can do for your baby. Keep up the good work!

Hmm, I might be in Kzoo in June or a couple other random days, if you want some puppy socialization time.

[Darwin]

Ok, so here I am almost 2 months later, we still need help with this.

Darwin is 99% a great, perfect dog…

Except the crate... so here is where we are at:

He sleeps in the bed with me and my fiance. She wakes up at 6:00 and takes him out to pee. He eats a little bit of food (no more than maybe 1/8th a cup) and plays a few minutes. Then she takes him back out after showering and he poops. He comes back to bed and sleeps with me for an hour. I take him out to pee again before I go to work and he goes most of the time.

So then at about 7:45am he goes into the crate. All last week we used the small crate with 2 locks on it inside the big crate with that latched as well, because he learned how to open the latch AND BOTH SNAP LOCKS on the small crate. This week he will now be back in just the big crate with both latches and both locks. I feel he is now old enough to handle the big crate again.

However as soon as I leave, he will freak out and poop in his crate. I know he does it right after I leave. The last couple weeks he actually only does this a few times (2 or 3) a week so I am starting to think maybe it will get better. However if we need to leave the house at all on the weekend or at night (even if only for 30 minutes) he will crap all over and make a huge mess even if he just went out.

This is getting very old and is so disgusting.

On a side note this week he has now been fully sexually erect when I get home from work 3 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No idea what to make of that yet, but he certainly will be getting fixed in the 5 to 6 month range and not waiting a year!

Any advice?

We have tried towels, rugs, newspaper, everything in the crate...he destroys and POOPS on all of it. And before anyone suggests putting nothing in the crate, we tried that a few times, he then never lays down and just shreds it to pieces with his nails and that is by far the worst kind of mess. The dust can be 2 to 3 feet around the crate in all directions and is very hard to clean up off his nails and the crate.

So 2 things I want...

1. Him to not poop in his crate 90% of the time.
2. It not to be a 3 hour cleanup project when he does.

Anyone got any bright ideas I have yet to try?

[renaultf1]

So your pup is now about 4mos old…16wks. That is still really young.

Really, I would try an xpen (with a top) and litter box like Tanza & Kiroja suggested...that is the setup I have at home for night and it works great for me. The problem with a crate that is too big, your pup learns to go to the bathroom in the crate and then it is difficult to train them otherwise. For a bottom you could put a sheet of linoleum down...easy cleanup with that.

I have my 15wk old b-girl set up with her crate (plastic medium vari-kennel) inside an xpen (with a top) with 2 litter boxes (with equine pine for a litter). She missed the litter box (and hit the wood floor) on occasion the first week, so that was why I put a second litter box in. Since then, she is 100% using the litter box. She's never gone to the bathroom in her crate (she's been with me a month now - came home from the breeder at 11wks).

Regarding lining the crate for ease of cleanup, I would use paper towels if leaving the empty tray is not an option. At least all you need to do is throw out that part of the mess.

When you leave to go out at night, do you leave him with any sort of interactive toy to keep him occupied. Kongs work great on my little girl (I put her kibble in and top it with peanut butter or cottage cheese and freeze it)...as do the busy buddies and squirrel dude toys that dispense food when they play with them. You might try something like that so that he is occupied as you are going out the door.

That is all I can think of. I hope it helps. I know it is frustrating, but he is still little and this too shall pass.

[Darwin]

renaultf1 … thanks for the reply, however I guess I failed to mention a few things...

1. The dog sleeps with us at night and that works fine, I don't want to crate him more than the 9 hours he already is.

2. Regarding crate size, the small one we are stopping using starting tomorrow... is barely big enough for him to turn around in and he has no issue crapping all over it and flinging it out and getting it all over his feet and making a huge mess. He honestly just doesn't care. I came home Friday night and he was even LAYING IN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. I don't want to do the litter box thing because I want to get him to NOT GO while he is in his crate, not to think other things in the house that remind him of the litter box are ok to go on.

4. He rarely ever pees in his crate... maybe once a week. That really isn't even the issue. He poops because when he screams his butt muscles go through the pooping motion and it causes him to evacuate everything he has, which is always surprising as we ALWAYS make sure he poops before going into his crate. sigh

5. The linoleum is an AWESOME idea.

6. Paper towels work with 409, it just sucks doing it every day for 20 minutes (or MORE) and I was hoping to not have to do that anymore.

7. He does not care one tiny bit what is in the crate with him. I even gave him a piece of BACON one time and he would not eat it. I cam home to find it mashed into the poop just like he does with every other toy. He is absolutely possessed in his crate and will not behave rationally or normal at all.

This is all so disappointing because we love him to pieces while we are here, we are just both getting so sick of the mess every time we come home :((

I sure do hope he gets better!

[renaultf1]

Hey Darwin…

Glad you liked the linoleum idea...:D:D:D

No I wasn't suggesting you use the xpen at night...I was suggesting you use the xpen during the day or when you go out :). With the litter box, my pup only has the litter box in the xpen, otherwise, there isn't another one in the house. She has never tried to go in anything that resembles one anywhere else in the house (she's pretty much house trained at this point when she is free - 100% on the poop, 99% on the pee), so I know she is not associating using the litter box with being able to poop or pee anywhere in the house. Another thing on the xpen...it helped with my girl Ruby when she was an only dog. She had separation anxiety (she was a show dog retiree and had never been an only dog). She would pee in her crate from nerves...only when I first left. Once I switched her to an xpen and crate, she had more room and was much better about being left alone and never peed again in her crate (or the xpen). I know peeing is not your issue, but it is the same sort of nervous reaction. But that is what works for me, the xpen was just a suggestion and wanted you to hear a few examples of how it works.

It might be your pup has separation anxiety, especially if he won't eat when you leave him a treat like bacon. From a suggestion on this forum, I got a snuggle puppy for my pup's crate...a stuffed dog that has a heart that emits a heartbeat and heat packs to keep the body warm...so it resembles having a litter mate. Do a search on the forum for another thread on that...has a link to where to buy it. Another thought is Comfort Zone (dog pheromone)...comes in spray or plug-in form, available at most pet stores or online (coupons are on their website)...some people have great success with it, and I would think it might work better on a pup that left its siblings as early as yours did.

Another thing that might help, try to make sure your pup is really tired when you leave. He'll might be too tired to notice you leave.

I'm plumb out of suggestions...maybe someone else will chime in. And remember, rational for a puppy is probably not what you or I consider rational at all...ha, ha :D.

[Quercus]

This is how Querk is, and always has been about a crate..well, except he doesn't poop in it..but he does everything except that and more. I call it 'crate anxiety'…I don't know if that is the 'official' name for it...but he doesn't have separation anxiety and never has. He doesn't destroy things because he is left alone, he does it when he is put in a crate....maybe more like human claustrophobia. He has literally hurt himself by trying to chew and scratch his way out of a crate. He is a little better in wire crates, but it is all still bad. At over ten years old he will tolerate being crated in the car (while still screaming), but at any other times, he will still chew and rip at the crate until his gums bleed (he has worn down his teeth to the gumline on the instances that he has HAD to be crated). When he has been in a wire crate he dug/ripped thru the plastic pan and damaged the tissue between his toes (this was just a few months ago). I guess this is a worst case scenario...but there are lots of Basenjis out there that are like this. If you handle it correctly now, you will be able to avoid a lot of what I described. We didn't do any sort of retraining to the crate, because we just learned how to make life so he doesn't need to be in a crate...but on the instances he does, he is just as bad as he was as a pup.

This puppy will probably NEVER like to be in a crate...but if you start now, and try to slowly desensitize him to it, you may be able to get him so he won't defecate and damage himself. I will try to get you in contact with a woman named Cheryl, who has the BEST crate training steps I have ever run across. The idea is that you stop using the crate to contain him during the training process...an xpen may be a suitable idea, because he may not feel so confined, or you may need to totally puppy proof a room to leave him in. But you slowly train him that the crate is the place he WANTS to be, and slowly desensitize him to being closed in etc. I mean SLOWLY...if you decide to just close him in one day and leave him, you can undo all of your progress. That is why you have to have an alternate place to keep him safe when you can't be there.

So brainstorm on a way that you can keep him safe without crating him for now, and I will try to get you in touch with Cheryl.

[Quercus]

I went thru and read the rest of the posts in this thread. Darwin, the pooping that he is doing has nothing to do with housetraining. At this point, put paper down so your cleanup job isn't such a pain in the @$$. He knows where to go, he just can't control it when he gets panicky. He is better about it when you are gone to work because he knows how to predict the routine, worse about it when you leave for a short time because he didn't expect that to happen, and it sends him into a panic.

Sorry to tell you, there is no quick fix for this problem.

[Shaye's Mom]

Darwin:

Take heart, you are definitely not alone in your problems with the crate. We have a puppy who is now 15 weeks old - she has screamed her head off, pooped and peed in her crate every time we have tried putting her in it - and - this is only for a period of two hours tops each time. We started with the wire crate, and she realized she didn't want to sit in it so she backed up to the wires and pooped outside every time - we put those bed pads you get for sick people under the crate to sort of save the floors. We tried all the methods, treats in there, food in there, only little periods of time, etc., etc. - nothing has worked. We've basically been housebound to keep her from being in the crate for more than five minutes for weeks now. Yesterday, we bought a plastic crate so she can no longer poop outside it, have put one pad in the bottom, bought some "Calm" for her water, and are going to try to give her some of the Calm, let it take effect, and put her in there while we go out to dinner - like your puppy, she is still young, and time alone may take care of the problem - I no longer am hoping for her liking the crate, but if she will just tolerate it for short periods, I will be happy. Maybe time will take care of your puppy's problem, but since your dog is in there longer, go for the x-pen. Making the sleep crate separate from the poop papers might be your answer.

[Quercus]

@Shaye's:

Darwin:

Take heart, you are definitely not alone in your problems with the crate. We have a puppy who is now 15 weeks old - she has screamed her head off, pooped and peed in her crate every time we have tried putting her in it - and - this is only for a period of two hours tops each time. We started with the wire crate, and she realized she didn't want to sit in it so she backed up to the wires and pooped outside every time - we put those bed pads you get for sick people under the crate to sort of save the floors. We tried all the methods, treats in there, food in there, only little periods of time, etc., etc. - nothing has worked. We've basically been housebound to keep her from being in the crate for more than five minutes for weeks now. Yesterday, we bought a plastic crate so she can no longer poop outside it, have put one pad in the bottom, bought some "Calm" for her water, and are going to try to give her some of the Calm, let it take effect, and put her in there while we go out to dinner - like your puppy, she is still young, and time alone may take care of the problem - I no longer am hoping for her liking the crate, but if she will just tolerate it for short periods, I will be happy. Maybe time will take care of your puppy's problem, but since your dog is in there longer, go for the x-pen. Making the sleep crate separate from the poop papers might be your answer.

i just want to point out that 'fixing' this problem isn't a matter of treating in the crate, or trying to get them used to it with short spurts (as Shaye's mom found out). It is a process with specific training steps, that are teeny, tiny baby steps towards a goal. I will see if Cheryl will let me post her steps here as a sticky.

[renaultf1]

@Quercus:

i just want to point out that 'fixing' this problem isn't a matter of treating in the crate, or trying to get them used to it with short spurts (as Shaye's mom found out). It is a process with specific training steps, that are teeny, tiny baby steps towards a goal. I will see if Cheryl will let me post her steps here as a sticky.

Great…please post them if you can. I have a friend (not me, thankfully) that has a similar issue with their lab with confinement...and even has a problem in a pet safe room...pooping and torn off door trim, drywall.

[wrx227wrc]

Piggy only has problems pooping when she gets panicky too. For example if we leave her home in a crate and someone comes in the house but doesn't come down to see her or let her out she will do it. We can't put anything in her crate or she shreds it, we tried everything. For a while I was even buying fleece baby blankets at the dollar store and tossing them if she pooped. We gave up on that after a while. The mess was terrible, so I can relate to hours of cleanup… by the time you get her cleaned up and the crate.

We did some desensitizing and left for short periods like I described before, and that helped a lot. My friend that has a B went to the vet about her anxiety, hers would cry incessantly, and they actually gave her meds, prozac I think, for it. I think she tried it, but didn't think it worked enough to do it. Sounded crazy to me.

It hasn't happened in a while so we have been lucky. She has come to terms with her crate now and will once in a while go hang out in it by choice, so I know she doesn't hate it.

Have you tried one of those snuggle buddy things? I wonder if you could find some way to protect it if Darwin had an accident.

Best of luck and lots of patience!